Sales Recruitment and Talent Acquisition with Kathy Hammond

Kathy Hammond is a sales and talent acquisition powerhouse leader who's generated over a hundred million dollars in revenue. From dealing with active and passive candidates to distinguishing between selling a product or a service, Kathy shares her invaluable insights on recruiting for sales roles and supercharging the talent acquisition process. In this episode, we discuss: 

• Unique skill set for a rewarding sales career
• Recognizing if sales is the right fit
• Value proposition and positioning for employers
• Active vs. passive candidates and recruitment strategies
• Continuous skill development
• Leveraging a well-crafted LinkedIn profile
• Effective job search strategies
• Emphasis on value proposition and problem-solving for employers
  
  

Show Guest

Kathy Hammond is a leader in sales and talent acquisition. With an impressive $100M+ revenue track record, Kathy excels in creating employee selection programs for clients like TransAmerica, Forever 21, and the City of Los Angeles, delivering substantial savings and revenue. With three decades of experience and a Master's in Organizational Management, she founded two successful recruitment solutions companies. Kathy is an award-winning author and global speaker, earning admiration from CEOs worldwide. Her recruitment process dramatically expands candidate pools and delivers top-tier sales professionals, transforming organizations into thriving revenue powerhouses. Kathy's expertise ensures sales enterprises find the right talent and achieve unparalleled success. Learn more about her Predictable Profits: The 7-step Talent Acquisition Process to Supercharge Your Revenue. Follow her on LinkedIn 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:47

Hi, this is Jill Griffin and this is the Career Refresh this week. I am introducing you to Kathy Hauman. She is a leader in sales and talent acquisition. She has an outstanding, over a hundred million dollar revenue track record and she excels in creating employee selection programs for top companies like Trans America, forever 21, and the city of Los Angeles, and, overall, what she does is put in systems in place that deliver substantial savings and increased revenue. She has over three decades of experience. She also has a master's in organizational management and she founded two successful recruitment solution companies. She is an award winning author and global speaker and she's earned the admiration from CEOs worldwide.

Speaker 1: 1:37

In this episode, we talk about what employers and hiring managers need to know about recruiting for sales roles, and there's some myths out there. We also talk about passive and active candidates and some of the ways that, as someone who is recruiting, or a hiring manager that's recruiting, what they can do in order to work through that process between an active and a passive candidate. We also talk about how to supercharge your talent acquisition process Lots of tips and tricks for what you need to do in addition to considering hiring Kathy, and what I like about this is for employees to hear the other side of the table, to hear what recruiters are doing, to hear what prospective employers are doing. It helps you also, as an employee, be smarter and learn how to navigate the process in today's job market. If you have questions, email me at hello at jillgriffincoachingcom.

Speaker 1: 2:31

I am putting all of Kathy's information in the show notes and also her predictable profits the seven-sept talent acquisition process to supercharge your revenue. You can learn about that program Also where to follow her on LinkedIn. So, friends, have a great week and I'll see you next time. Hi, kathy, welcome.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Hey, jill, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to talking with you.

Speaker 1: 2:56

It's really we've been having for any of our listeners. We've been having some great conversation behind the scenes and I think that you're definitely going to want to grab a pen or your notes app and take notes on this episode, because there's a lot that we want to talk about, especially around recruiting and the current job market and marketplace. However, my listeners know I always ask I start with what did you think you wanted to be when you grew up?

Speaker 2: 3:21

You know, originally I wanted to be a writer and then that evolved into becoming an anthropologist.

Speaker 1: 3:32

Wow, I was not expecting that.

Speaker 2: 3:36

Now I wanted to be like the next Margaret Mead and you know and just look really about all the different cultures and people and because people fascinate me. And then while I was in college and studying anthropology, cultural anthropology, and I found that there were some pretty disgusting habits that some of the cultures had. So I thought, okay, I'm out, let me go back to writing.

Speaker 1: 4:03

But then you did get your master's in organizational management, so you did stay in that. What led you then from anthropology to organizational management?

Speaker 2: 4:13

Well, you know it was a circuitous route to get there because I was really I started out really in just kind of liberal arts because everything for me was really about language, arts and literature and all of that, so I guess maybe the communication aspect of education and so, and then I stepped away from college for a long time and was working and working in sales and then, as I was evolving, I always wanted to go back and finish my education.

Speaker 2: 4:51

But what I started realizing was that a lot of the companies the companies where I had worked myself and you know friends and family where they worked, and seeing that they, some of them, were just really poorly organized and, as a result, people were having difficulty trying to fit in into the, into an organization to, you know, thinking they had one thing in mind when they're joining the company getting a new job and what was really needed or what was really the setup and so on. And then and then, as I started then studying business coaching and then went back to school and found organizational management because I love systems. So if I can, if you've got a system in place, then you know it's much easier for people to follow and to get those predictable results for in anything that they would be doing. So then I started studying organizational management, with emphasis and HR management, because people are the ones that are running the systems.

Speaker 1: 5:53

Yes, that that's interesting, and then, as our listeners will hear this today, that that led you into creating an employee selection program and you've worked for renowned clients like Trans America for over 21, the city of Los Angeles. You've done really phenomenal work. I know you've generated millions in revenue and savings for these various organizations and you've created this recruitment process. I think it would be helpful, before we get into a little bit more about today's subject matter, that you take our listeners through a high level of like. What is this process and why is it different?

Speaker 2: 6:30

Yeah, you know, I, I eventually after. Well, I worked for for several years for a company one of the largest pre-employment testing companies in the US and working with a lot with industrial and organizational psychologists that work there at the company and also at our client organizations to for, purely for, selection and so making sure that you're going to bring in the right fit and being able to measure that you know with the their, the dimensions that were necessary to ensure that someone you know was an employee, a candidate, was a good fit. When I left that company I started a sales recruiting agency.

Speaker 2: 7:17

Sales is is broken because there there's not a particular. I mean, there are best practices but it's best practices for a particular company and that works well for them. But for a lot of companies they don't have that in place because they don't know, because there's there's no barrier to entry in sales for any of the sales people coming. You know, unlike medicine or law or engineering, but so that companies they don't know how or what they're looking for in a sales person, what's necessary for success on the job at their organization, what skill sets do they have to possess, and so and you know what knowledge, what I mean, there's so many, so many factors, but they don't know what that, what that is.

Speaker 2: 8:08

So in devising so, with my sales recruiting agency, I wanted to help organizations, not just be able to say, hey, here I found some candidates for you and throw them over to you because here their resumes look good and they're, you know, they have some of the matching keywords that you're looking for. We don't do that. So my agency, this is really about identifying exactly what is needed for success on the job at my clients' company, first and foremost, and then going in and proactively searching for candidates that match what it is that they're doing and that could be in terms of, you know, like, say, a person who has a $10 million a year quota and sells $10 million a year, the person who is selling $500,000 a year cannot make that leap.

Speaker 1: 9:01

They just can't go, yeah, not without training.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's incremental. They have to because there are different decision makers, there are different thought processes, that those are going to the buying organizations, there's all of this. But a lot of hiring managers they don't look at it that way and they think, oh, they have a great personality and I like the way they look, and, you know, we wouldn't have the same alma mater, you know, and all these different things that they, this criteria that they use to hire, that has no bearing on their ability to actually do the job.

Speaker 2: 9:36

So, as I saw the struggles that our clients were having and that, even after taking them through really a robust vetting process that we have at SalesFit, my recruiting agency that they were blowing at with the candidates, they in effect thinking, well, no, I don't think that they're right for the job. And I would ask them, well, tell me why. And they're not able to articulate it because it's just something that, because it's a subjective measurement that they're using versus objective measurement. So I built out this program from you know, so to help organizations be able to, you know, identify what it is that they need, all the questions that they need to ask to make sure that they are. You know calling this making it a really efficient way to get candidates all the way through. And then having a all the interview questions for hiring managers to ask, based upon their specific sales process, which is essentially like a job analysis for the sales person, and but it's tailored because it's for them, it's not for another company, it's just specifically for them and then ask those questions and then they measure the candidate's response on a behavioral anchored rating scale against the subject matter experts in sales.

Speaker 2: 11:03

So now you're going to be scoring candidates based on this. You know, once they have the score, you're going to evaluate the like. The one with the highest score you know wins essentially because you know I mean, but there are other aspects to win hiring that you have to look at. But this way, now you have a purely objective measurement for the sales person, because what we also have as human beings is the recency effect, so that the last person that we spoke to, that we interviewed and they have, you know, give us then maybe a nice little glow and everything else.

Speaker 2: 11:39

Well, that's what you're remembering. You're not remembering the, the conversations that you had, you know, with the. You know the first candidate that you met, because no one's taking notes. No, what goes on behind the doors with hiring managers is, you know, there's only essentially two people that know what was said and what was done. So but here now you've got a way to really track what was said so that you can reflect back on your conversation, looking at the scores and your notes for each of those questions.

Speaker 1: 12:16

What I hear you saying is the difference is a mixture of making sure that we're using objective measurement, which, by default, then, would clear out potentially any unconscious bias that may be preloaded in the system. And and and, in addition to kind of, there's also affinity bias, right. That I think happens a lot within hiring. Where you went to my alma mater, you and I both work. I didn't know you, but you worked the same company I did. Therefore, I feel familiar with you. You probably have the training which, as we're saying, isn't necessarily vetting someone. It's just saying that those affinities gives you the bias in which you might think that they are the right person for the role, right, really interesting.

Speaker 2: 13:00

And no and Jill. Even more importantly, I mean for people if they, if they doubt that and thinking, oh no, I can rely on my gut. Okay, aside from you know your gut having one of the lowest validity, you know, coefficients of any interview method. It's, I think it's point one for that. So it's very low. By having a process in place like this, it actually drives revenue by 340%, the studies have shown. And so by eliminating all those bias opportunities and because now you're looking at saying, oh no, this person has the, that skill that I need.

Speaker 2: 13:41

And you know, and I tell you, know people this that you know, in the 30 plus years that I've been in sales, my myself, any job interview I've ever gone to, nobody has ever asked me to prove that I know how to open the door to a C suite or how to, how I write a winning proposal, or how I develop trust. These are all things that sales professionals, salespeople, need to know how to do. And yet, over all these years, I've never been asked a single question. They just assume that if I put it on my resume that I, you know, sold a $1 million account, that I must know how to do all of those things. But I can tell you from from experience, a lot of experience in recruiting, and also from studies Caliper Corporation, they, they did dozens of studies on this and they found that 55% of people in sales should not be.

Speaker 1: 14:43

Why? Because they're not. They're not effective in meeting the goal that's been put in front of them, or for some other reason they have no no sales.

Speaker 2: 14:54

It's sales is not just something that anyone can do. Of course it requires certain traits perseverance, you know the, the ability to really you know like handle rejection.

Speaker 2: 15:10

I say rejection must be strong, absolutely, and so and there are a lot of people that are just not cut out for sales. They don't possess, they don't have talent to be really good at sales. It's one of the highest paying professions in the world, so to be really and people look at that and go, oh yeah, I can make a lot of money in sales. Yeah, but only if you're good at it. I mean, I can look at basketball and say, hey, listen, I could be. You know, I could make you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in the NBA, but I don't have the ability to play basketball. I don't have that talent, I don't have what it takes to to do that, and so but because, like I said, you know, there's no barrier to entry in sales, so anybody just walks in the door, but unfortunately, 55% of them are not skilled at doing this. But then there's another interesting stat which is, from those studies, 25% are selling the wrong thing.

Speaker 1: 16:06

Meaning they should be selling something different versus what they're selling currently.

Speaker 2: 16:09

Correct. So people that you know you look at product versus service sales and you know there's some people are just better suited, you know, and or like door to door sales. My earlier career, I spent many years in commercial security sales and one of the companies I worked for was a wholesale alarm monitoring company and national big national organization and the they had, you know, like the door knockers for these companies because they were buying contracts from individual alarm companies and so they had their door knockers going out and selling alarm systems. You know, like they come to your home and sell past the control and different things. I could not do that. I couldn't do that kind of a set. I'm not even sure how I would even approach it at a homeowner walking up, you know doing that.

Speaker 2: 17:02

Car sales you know you can make a lot of money in car sales but those are usually one off purchases. I need to really have my mind goes to the more complex and so I can look at an organization and say, okay, here's all the things that they're where they're having issues, and I can pick, you know, pull all the different solutions and combine them in such a way that will solve their problem and so so these are all different skill sets, so do you need skill sets Some of them can be taught or learned on the job or do you think there is a level of like, as Gallup would say, like you're get.

Speaker 1: 17:43

You have strengths and you can lean into them and you'll get better. But if something is not in your wheelhouse, you might get a little bit better, but it's never going to have to pay off, as if something is a natural talent. Do you think that you can learn these things, or is someone who goes into sales really has to have the natural talent for it?

Speaker 2: 18:04

I think that you need a propensity because talent can be refined over time. I mean, you listen to early. I saw this interviewer read something about Ed Sharon and then heard his first tapes, like when he was doing, and he was horrible. You see some of the other ones. So they had a propensity and they had other things where they were driven to refine their skill. Okay, but a lot of people they get frustrated because sales can be a slog a good portion of the time. So you've got a bunch of lows and then one really big high which keeps you going to the next one. Some people just aren't cut out for that.

Speaker 1: 18:53

So resilience, perseverance, is just as important as the more softer skills of being able to read the room or work with a consultative sell that might take a little bit of longer lead time. So it's both those sizes what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Well, it depends on what you're selling. Fair, like for that lead time, but for each of us, we're all really complex human beings and so you can pull out a few of those traits, those characteristics, but it's like, and you could, maybe you could make a career doing it, but you're not going to be a top performer and companies just can't afford to have mid or mediocre or underperforming sales people and the stakes are too high for them. So this is really more about, like, if you're going to go into something and you're going to be, you want to be in sales, then you have to be the absolute best and then you have to understand, you start studying it and start really. And if you're that passionate about it, it means that you already have something inside of you that says, okay, you're built for this, but the other thing that you need is you need to be smart, you need intelligence for sales and you can't be lazy.

Speaker 2: 20:30

I mean, there's just certain aspects. So if you're looking, if somebody is looking for an easy job, thinking oh, this is all about going out and entertaining clients and playing golf, you'd be wrong, and that there are like 24 different aspects of job tasks within the app for sales and if you're going to be good, you have to be good at all of them, right down to how. Are you asking for referrals, do you? Most of them don't. Most people don't. It's kind of like they run in, make the sale and run out of there.

Speaker 1: 21:08

And move on. So for anyone who's listening, who's thinking or questioning I'm in sales, should I be selling? Let's say they're not necessarily making the number they're finding. Is it the year? Is the economy? Is it something around their own personal training? You said something that I want to go back to. That I thought was interesting. Like selling a service versus selling a product, are there things for any of our listeners, both on the hiring side or the person who wants to be hired, that they should be looking at as to whether or not they would fare better on the service side of things or the product side of sales?

Speaker 2: 21:48

They won't know until they get into it and because there are so many different types of products and then you have almost like a hybrid product service kind of a situation. It's until you actually begin, until you have an opportunity to sell both, you may not know where your sweet spot is.

Speaker 1: 22:08

Okay, okay, so basically try it. So that goes into the question that you and I were talking about before around active and passive candidates. It's just making me think, like you might be well employed, you might like your job, your organization and what you're selling, so you're passive, you're not necessarily in the market. How did you define, then, the difference between, as you say, passive and active candidates? So an active candidate.

Speaker 2: 22:39

I'll start with that. An active candidate is someone who is actively looking for a job. They are going onto job boards, they're asking around, they're making applications, they're doing all that. They're actively involved in their search. This is generally somebody who is very unhappy in their current role or they just want something more. Somebody who has been laid off or quiet or loud, quit or whatever style that they're going to use, whereas a passive candidate is, which actually represents 73% of a company's candidate pool. Interestingly, these are people that are not actively looking but are open to hearing about new opportunities. Let's zoom in to hearing about new opportunities.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Okay, okay. So are there other motivations that sort of differentiate them from active candidates, besides being opened?

Speaker 2: 23:45

They're not. In many cases they're not unhappy where they are. They're typically well employed, well compensated. It would take something really significant to move them, which means then you have to look for these are not people that are going to go make they will not make a lateral move. There's no need for them to make a lateral move, and this is where a lot of employers have.

Speaker 2: 24:13

I think they have a struggle with that concept because they see someone that has exactly what they want that skill set and all of that and they think that because I'm offering the same thing and we happen to like our company a lot better than where you are, the employer's thinking this that you should just want to join us just because and I tell employers over and over again nope, that's not how it works and that if they're going to make a move, and if it's an actual I mean lateral for responsibilities, then you're going to have to do something more like pay them 30% more than what they're currently making. They have no motivation to move over to your company otherwise. Or you're going to give them larger sales territory, for example, and now. So whereas they were maybe a smaller regional, now they're going to maybe pick up a few states more, which is going to be able to expand their earning opportunity on that, and you may get someone who a passive candidate, who may be on a bad day having with their manager because people leave managers, they don't leave companies and you catch them on the right day, they may be willing to make a lateral move just to get out of there. Now, that's not ideal because they're running from something, not to something.

Speaker 1: 25:41

And I always say that when I work with clients, both on my career strategy and executive coaching side, it's like we've all been in the interview, whether it's a panel interview or an individual interview, where someone's resume is given to us and the resume is great and we're excited to meet them.

Speaker 1: 25:58

And then we meet them and there's something off, there's something that like isn't equating, and it's that it's exactly that. It's someone who either didn't want to move or was leaving and maybe feeling a little disgruntled against their organization, or they're doing well, and then you're dragging them and they're only taking the role because you're throwing a lot of money at them. And what we find, to your point about managers versus organizations, we find is that those candidates tend to either one as you're in the interview, you sense that there's something that's like a misalignment here or, if they somehow squeak through and get employed, they tend to leave very shortly after. They tend to maybe stay a year. So the effort going into bringing in that employee is just not necessarily worth it, because it was someone that you kind of dragged there because the carrot of money and look who doesn't like money Money's good, but it can't be the only reason why you're bringing them in.

Speaker 2: 26:55

No, but this is why employers need to make a sales argument for why someone should join you, the fact that you exist. Listen, they're already. You know, I mean, unless there is something going on, they're already well employed and so they, you know and they listen, they're money. You know all the people that we go after for our clients. They're all passive. They're all passive candidates. We don't. We don't post on job boards. We just because we really narrow our search to exactly what we're looking for and we don't want to be. You know, we don't want to spend any time going through a lot of irrelevant resumes that come across through the job boards and so but but if you're, if a candidate is open to new opportunities, because maybe the growth isn't great, you know, at the, at the organization, maybe you know you got people who have, you know they have there's no upward more mobility. You know you've maxed out your territory, or maybe they're shrinking your territory. There's all kinds of things that that can happen. But in that case then you want to make yourself as an attractive, a passive candidate as you can, because any of the recruiters that would be that. Because everyone's going to go to LinkedIn, everyone is, and I see, you know so many people have. Just they've become so complacent in their current job and which I tell everyone. Don't. Don't do that, because anything can happen Mergers, acquisitions, board of directors could be indicted and you're all out of out of work. You know anything could happen and so it's.

Speaker 2: 28:40

You know, make sure that you have a top notch LinkedIn profile.

Speaker 2: 28:45

You know you've got some serious, valuable real estate up at the top there on the banner and it's like let people know what you're all about and what your phone number is and your email address. I mean, always put that in there. People have to know how to be able to get in touch with you and then build out all of not a regurgitation of your job description, but put in their actual accomplishments. You may not want to include, you know, like specific client names or anything like that, and that's fine. But I mean you can be generic about that, but really do bullet points. You know people are not reading these long paragraphs. No, if you just put in there you know I worked at this, you know XYZ company, here's my dates of employment and this was my title, that doesn't tell anyone anything and it also shows that you're you might just be a little too complacent, especially if you've been with a company for a very long time, and so that's going to send out some different signals to recruiters when they're doing their job.

Speaker 1: 29:46

That makes me wonder our act like which is more desirable? It's desirable active or passive candidates.

Speaker 2: 29:56

You know, it depends.

Speaker 2: 29:59

I would say it really does depend, because things happen and as an employee, you don't have control over what a company does that can have you lose your job. You have no ability for that. So if they've got a really strong position and as an active candidate, they can really bolster themselves instead of waiting for somebody to find them, because really, what you're trying to do is cover all your bases. You want to have a really decked out LinkedIn profile so that people actively looking you know the re-hearders will be drawn to you and then, as being an active candidate, what you want to do is now be proactive in your search, and so you have to start identifying. You have to start thinking like a marketer and you are the product that you're going to sell, and if you're in sales, I always say that to people.

Speaker 1: 31:00

You are the product you're selling.

Speaker 2: 31:01

Yes, and so it's. You know, get your resume together and get it done. I always say get it done professionally, because we're not resume writers.

Speaker 1: 31:14

And you're not career counselors, which again, is why working with you know, if you have a mentor, hiring a coach, working with someone who understands how to shape the story, do this the narrative, the career narrative that you want, and help position you for what that particular opportunity is. Not every opportunity is going to be positioned the same way.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Working those nuances is really where your work is as a candidate, before you start to talk to someone like Kathy, for those of us that are in the market, Well, or even to the organizations, but for those and this was something I'm glad you brought that up, because then I have a question on this so, for a so someone who is going to proactively seek out employers, do you do something different, like you know, with your services to prepare them for that, you know, like on, because they're doing the outreach to the, to the employer, you know, versus responding to a job post or, yeah, great question.

Speaker 1: 32:21

I mean much like you. Your LinkedIn is your marketing document. Your resume is a single source of truth. There may be things that you put on your LinkedIn that you wouldn't put, or, let me say the opposite, there may be things you put on your resume that is a more confidential. You're not going to spam it out to the world. Again, we're never going to reveal confidential information. We're not going to reveal numbers that we shouldn't be revealing. But, again, linkedin is more of the marketing document, where the resume is a single source of truth.

Speaker 1: 32:47

What I'd also say to people is that if you are recently unemployed, you have to check with the terms of your separation, but for a month or so, you may want to think about not ending the date on LinkedIn. We know that LinkedIn suppresses the response rates of people who have, basically, are showing that they're out of work because their job closed out, you know, two months ago. And now it's showing that we know this because recruiters, when they're paying for the service, are going in and they don't want candidates that are quote unemployed. So I am not suggesting that you do anything ethical or dishonest. I'm simply saying why don't you pause and maybe wait for a month or so. However, your resume is the single source of truth. Your resume says when the job ended, your LinkedIn, because of SEO and search, may still stay open ended. Again, that's something you need to decide for yourself. Talk to a mentor, talk to a career executive coach you know and help you figure out how you're going to do that. So that's part one. Part two is, when you're approaching an organization, you really need to think about the networking that you're doing and you need to think about really strategically how you're going into that conversation, because if they had a job, it might be posted or they might have told people that they're looking for a job. So you going them and saying like, hi, I'm looking for a sales manager role, do you have anything available? Or your variation of that isn't going to be a very productive conversation because you would know that already. What you do want to do is come to them with really smart, intelligent questions that are not Googleable. If you can Google the answer, don't ask it because they are not there. If you're getting someone's time to spend 20 minutes with you to network, their job is not to review your resume, just to tell you what to do next. All of those things are not them. That's what you're going to get and talk to a mentor or coach about.

Speaker 1: 34:38

What you want to go to a networking interview or networking meeting about is asking them something really pertinent to that individual. Again, if it's on the company website or if it's in their own LinkedIn bio, you don't need to ask them the questions. We're talking about questions like how did you find your way into this career? How did you like working within this particular company versus that type of company? Again, it's a broad area to dig in, but you have to use your own, probably very similar to being in sales, being able to read the room and understanding the types of questions you would ask somebody. That is going to help show them that you are a really consultative, responsive type thinker, because you're asking questions and engaging the person in a dialogue and an operation. Then, of course, reciprocity Before you leave that conversation, you also want to make sure is there anything that I can do for you?

Speaker 1: 35:35

Is there someone you're looking to meet? Oh, you're looking for a sales, associate's and junior level people. I might know some people. Those are the things that I tell people when they're networking and trying to get into a company Obviously, making sure that you either know the person or there's two or three degrees of separation, which is what LinkedIn is great for helping you see what you might have in common with the person. Having that and then coming at it strategically and thinking through questions that are not about the job market, they're not about the economy, they're not about things, again, that are Google-able, but they're something specific to your experience, the person you're speaking with, experience and the company, product or service at hand. Again, you got to do your research.

Speaker 2: 36:19

Yes, absolutely. I'll have several people come to my agency and say I'm looking for a job. They don't tell me what they're looking for or why anyone would want to hire them. It's just say well, I was just laid off, so I'm just putting that out there. You need to also treat recruiters as you would the employer. That's the other thing. People do treat us differently. We represent our employer. If I see something in those interactions with candidates, I can kick them out of them for any consideration because we're being paid by the employer. On the recruiting side, you do that to build a company.

Speaker 2: 37:22

That's why, with the recruiting system that we now have online as a separate service for companies, the recruiters even at the companies because it involves HR, and if they have a onsite, recruiters there and then also their hiring managers, are the three groups that are involved with using the system. We help the recruiters when they're doing screening to be able to get to the meat of things with candidates. We call them knockout questions, essentially because you don't want hiring managers spending time with irrelevant candidates. It makes it really incumbent upon the candidates to be really crystal clear about what value they're offering to an employer. They have to understand too that not every job just because you think, okay, well, I think this would be good.

Speaker 2: 38:37

Not everything is going to be a match, just like when you're dating. Not every person is prince or prince charming. That's not how it is. It doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. It just means it's not right, that's not a right fit. You can help the process a job seeker by being really clear on what value why would somebody hire you? You can bring to the organization. I see that with a lot of candidates and they say well, my objective is to X, y and Z. The employer doesn't care what your objective is. If I'm the buyer and they're a buyer, I want what I want, not what you want, not what you've got to sell.

Speaker 1: 39:33

I always tell people you have to position yourself as the solution to their problem. You might say, but I don't know what their problem is. That's where your work is. You have to think about who that person is, where they're sitting within the organization, what business they're in product or service and think about what might their challenges be in today's marketplace and then position your story, your narrative, for how you are the solution to their problem. Yeah, yeah, that's sales, right? Right, again, coming back to where we started, and you are the product that you're selling in this market, right, if you didn't get a job.

Speaker 1: 40:08

So I want to just go back to what we said before, like when we were talking about passive versus active candidates. I've heard this before less. When someone's hiring me, because if they're hiring me to work with them as their executive coach, they are active and they're in the market and they're looking proactively to make a change. But I've heard this a lot amongst friends and colleagues and when I did work in corporate I would hear this a lot they're almost just like I can get a job at any time, this idea that I'm in my job, I like my job, but I can get a job anywhere at any time. So there's almost this mindset that they don't have to keep working to get a job, and I want you all to know that that's not true.

Speaker 1: 40:58

Right, you may have had years in which you were the hot commodity, but markets change, people change, people in the roles that are hiring change, so you have to make sure that you are. Maybe you sit somewhere between the passive and active, and I'd love to get your take on this, cathy. I mean, obviously, you meet hundreds of people regularly. You have top clients that you're recruiting for and helping them with their recruiting and acquisitions. What do you think that someone should do about always being ready? How would they approach the market if they're in this place where they're like, yeah, I'm not really looking?

Speaker 2: 41:36

You know, I'm reminded this reminds me of the book who Moved my Cheese, and the complacency is your biggest killer. And I think that, even if you have many years at a company and you've been doing well, and if something happens where they let you go, for whatever reason, and you're going to have a shock to your system, that not everybody's going to be flocking to your door just because you said, hey, I'm available here. Because, again, each company is different. Each thing is set up. They may already have people in place that do that particular job already and they have no intention of getting rid of them just to move you in. So it's always be ready, like they say in the you know, spencer Johnson said in that book you know, have your little tennis shoes tied around your neck and be ready to move the moment they move the cheese. So it is. And to do that, to accomplish that, means always being open to you know.

Speaker 2: 42:53

And actually, now that I think as I think about this, recently, when we're doing a recruiting for this account for one of our clients and sent out a message to someone, an email, and they marked my personal email as spam, and I thought you know, that's really interesting, because of course that goes into our applicant tracking system. We, you know, we have it set up to where now there's no more emails that will go out to this individual. And but if they contact us at any point in there it's like why would you reject just even a reach out? I mean because the level of arrogance at this point on their part is that how they operate. Now I'm having to infer a lot of other.

Speaker 1: 43:49

Let me ask you a devil's advocate question on that. I remember back in the day recruiters would contact me through my work email. I, as the employee, can't win If I forward the email to my personal account to respond. You can see that. If I respond from the email, they can see that. So if I'm an employee and a recruiter actively reaches out to me and I, whether I'm interested or not, I can't respond without the company is going to. They look at our emails, right. So what do you do?

Speaker 2: 44:25

Well, first thing, I don't send to anyone's company email address for that reason, that's your excellence, that's your excellence, right, and if I cannot locate their personal email address? I remember pretty good at being able to locate them, but if I can't, then I will send a personalized message through LinkedIn. There you go, because I don't want to detract from what they're currently doing. I don't want anyone to have any kind of a fear of anything from the company happening, because it's just setting things off at a wrong note.

Speaker 1: 44:58

You're not respecting that. You might be busting me.

Speaker 2: 45:02

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 45:03

Okay, that's really good, that's good to know. Again, there's probably less of that in this market because there are people looking, but there's still a lot of silly things that go on.

Speaker 2: 45:12

Well, no, and recruiters do that Now at the same time, if I know that you are the perfect candidate okay, from what I can tell, and I just know that this would be a tremendous opportunity the question comes down to then, back to the candidate that we're targeting Would you prefer that I not find some way to reach you? If that's my only other option left, would it be better that I just not bring that to your attention, that this could be the most brilliant career move ever in there for you, but if I can't talk to you, then if I can't get with you somehow, then you lose that opportunity. Really, how many employers are really monitoring employees' emails like that?

Speaker 1: 46:11

Probably not to that level, but I mean, some do, I'm sure. I've worked in organizations where you know you're being monitored. Yes, okay, no.

Speaker 2: 46:25

I mean it's all a balance, I think. As long as like a recruiter whether even like an internal recruiter for a corporation versus a third party recruiting agency as long as they're balancing that respect for the candidate and for their circumstances and that you can find alternate ways to be able to communicate with them, that's what they should be doing, Because you don't want to put anyone in a bad spot At the same time. But I'm going back to that guy, that who marked the email as spam, like they're unsubscribing. It's a personal email for me. It's not like auto-generated or anything that we send out because we're so highly targeted, and I thought he just loses all opportunities than anything going forward, so that if he were to lose his job a year down the road, it's already in our records that we were completely dismissed by him. And the recruiters aren't trying to do anything to harm candidates.

Speaker 1: 47:35

No, that's the recruiters reputation. No candidates are trying to do something to harm them.

Speaker 2: 47:38

of course, and they're reaching out because for the most part, they really believe that, okay, maybe there might be an opportunity here for you that you might want to hear about. So we're not the enemy on this. And then, even as part of the recruiting system that we now have available for sale our actual seven-step process for this, we have it to where it actually respects that part of it and we train the recruiters how to go about finding these people so that you're not disrupting them in their workplace, and how to get to them and be able to get messages to them. So, because it is a concern for candidates, I mean, I had a recruiter call me at a company and I remember he was very aggressive with me and he said I will demand to see your W-2 and your employment agreements and some other stuff that he was requesting to make sure that you have a minimum $100,000 base before I'll connect you with my client.

Speaker 2: 48:57

And I thought I don't even. First of all, I don't know who he is, I don't know why I would share any of my own personal financial information and what that has to do with my ability to do the job, I mean. But some of them would get aggressive and he kept calling my office line, my extension, at my desk, so I thought that was pretty gutsy. I also yeah, I wouldn't talk to him anymore after that. That was.

Speaker 1: 49:33

So the last question I would have for you is what can passive candidates do to really elevate themselves? Meaning, we don't know. We don't know. So maybe I am interested. I'm happy today, but maybe I am interested. What can passive candidates do if they get an outrage? To keep themselves in the game?

Speaker 2: 49:52

Schedule a call with whoever contacted you First. You know there's Nothing happens just by hearing out what the opportunity is Now, if a recruiter and also one of the things that we train in this the actual messaging that has to go out to the candidates so that you really are, you know, attracting the ones who really would be interested in exploring this further, the other ones, because they have enough information to actually make a decision on is this something that fits in with my career goals, my compensation goals, my you know, all of it? And we have such this really compact messaging that we train people on how to do and so that you end up We've got like an 83% open rate on the emails, the system that we have, and so that we're having lots of much higher engagements, so that because we have a really fast turnaround for our shortlist candidate shortlist of 18.4 days on average. So by using this process and it is, but it gives candidates, it gives them that control of saying, yeah, I want to pursue this or no, thank you. And you know, and I get a lot of people that you know will respond and say, hey, thanks for you know, for contacting me, but you know I'm very happy where I am now. Some I've talked into reconsidering because I think it probably would be a better deal for them. But yeah, have an up-to-date resume on hand in case you're you know, you're going to be able to move things along much more quickly after that phone call.

Speaker 2: 51:45

Ask a lot of questions. Ask whoever is contacting you, the recruiters Ask them. You know as much as you want. I mean because you're making an investment of your time to get to know the organization. This is not about yeah, you're picking me. Oh, and that's the other thing too. Just because a recruiter contacts you and gets you into the process does not mean you're the only one. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:10

So, you know, I get some that just feel like you know, well, it's all up to me to decide what's going on here, because you called me and but I always tell them you know, listen, you know there are other candidates in this process and but I think that you know you have a really good shot at this Right and I mean I help you, you know, to really, you know, up your game. But it's really about being maybe being curious. You know, again, we have no control over what you know things that we don't have control over Right.

Speaker 1: 52:45

So what I'm hearing is being curious, which starts with taking the call, having the conversation, making sure your LinkedIn profile is updated, making sure your resume is updated, and then making sure that you are thinking about how you will add value to an organization or why you're the strategic solution to their problem. And then, yes, a little bit is to the game of chance, of matchmaking, of who you know, how you network, what they're looking for, the chemistry of the individuals involved and some things that can't really be measured. But doing the other pieces of it is really you know it's going to give you the best shot. Kathy, I thank you for putting the spin on. You know, so often we talk to the recruiters who are recruiting for employees. I think it's really important for employers, employees or people who are candidates in the marketplace to hear the perspective of the recruiter and the business side and what they're looking for, so that they could also shape themselves to be better candidates. So I thank you for sharing with us today.

Speaker 2: 53:47

Yeah, no, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you about this because it really is about we're in this together and you know, and so that and leverage, leverage the recruiters that are contacting you as a resource, because you may have other, different career aspirations and they have other clients too. Maybe you know that maybe something else would be more interesting. So you know again, if we're in this together, then we all win.

Speaker 1: 54:18

That's great. I'm going to put Kathy's information in the show notes, both where you can follow her on LinkedIn. Also, she has a recruiting system, predictable practice, which is the seven steps to talent acquisition process to supercharge your revenue, which is a great tool for business owners, and I'm going to also put how to find that in the show notes. Kathy, again thank you for being here today and if there's any questions that come in, please email them to hello at JillGryphoncoachingcom. We will get those questions to Kathy and we'll bring her back on the show and answer some of those questions to get those FAQs answered. So, thank you for listening and, kathy, thank you for being here. Thanks, jill.