Navigating Job Pivots and Setbacks with Executive Recruiter Hilary Black

Hillary Black is a highly regarded international executive coach and recruiter with over 25 years of experience across boutique and Fortune 500 companies. Hillary's experience as a Cancer Survivor adds a unique perspective, fostering a commitment to growth and flourishing in life's diverse stages. Embracing the unforeseen gift of being fired, she shares insights on resilience during layoffs, navigating uncertainties in job searches, and the importance of waiting and resting in one's process. Today, she is the SVP, Creative and Marketing for Solomon Page  

In this episode, we discuss

• Transitioning from a creative role to becoming a recruiter, bridging the gap between creativity and talent acquisition.
• Exploring initial career aspirations, understanding why she shifted, and embracing the transformative journey.
• Co-founding Allies in Recruiting to champion equity in the industry alongside like-minded recruiters.
• Embracing the unexpected gift of being fired and sharing the valuable lessons learned from this experience.
• Demonstrating resilience after a layoff and providing insights into navigating uncertainty during job searches.
• Managing setbacks during the job search and recognizing the importance of 'wait' and rest.

Show Guest:
Hillary Black is a highly regarded international executive coach and recruiter with over 25 years of experience across boutique and Fortune 500 companies. Specializing in executive leadership coaching, talent management, brand advocacy, and acquisition leadership, she has founded a coaching excellence center addressing unique personal and organizational needs. Hillary champions a personalized, values-aligned approach, collaborating with talent from emerging leaders to C-Suite executives. Her expertise extends to guiding senior leaders through crucial growth areas, fostering personal development and team dynamics, resulting in lasting transformative change. Beyond her professional success, Hillary's journey as a Cancer Survivor informs her life perspective, driving a commitment to growth and flourishing through life's various stages.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:47

Hi friends, this is Jill Griffin, the host of the Career Refresh podcast. Today I'm introducing you to Hilary Black. She is a highly regarded international executive coach and recruiter with over 25 years experience across boutique firms and Fortune 500 companies. She transitioned from a creative role early on to actually becoming a recruiter and then learning the industry's intricacies. She then eventually went on to co-oating the recruiting firm KM Black.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Hilary's journey is a testament to adaptability. She pursued her master's in social work and later joined WPP, where she expanded their executive coaching and recruiting practice. She co-founded Allies in Recruiting and is an industry organization in which recruiters and those in the hiring and talent recruitment profession are making a commitment to ensure industry equity. She embraced the unforeseen gift of being fired and she shares insights on resilience during layoffs and navigating uncertainties and job searches and, of course, the importance of waiting and rest in one's process and I know you're like no, but no, trust me, it's really important to the process. Today, hilary is specializing in executive leadership, coaching, talent management, brand advocacy and acquisition leadership. She's also founded a coaching excellence center where she addresses unique and personal organizational needs.

Speaker 1: 2:17

I've known Hilary for almost 20 years and you can hear that today in our friendship with us, sort of talking about how we think about the marketplace, how we think about jobs, our lifestyle and creating meaningful work. If you have any questions, email me at hello at jillgriffincoachingcom. We can bring Hilary back. She is more than happy to answer the questions, but definitely grab either pen and paper or that notes out, because she's dropping a lot of wisdom in this episode. Friends, have a beautiful week and here's to possibility. Hi, hilary, I am very excited that you are here with me today.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful that you asked me to do this. It's an opportunity to give back and remind myself of the things I always tell everyone else.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Right, all right. So our listeners know I always start with a question where I'd love to know what did you think you wanted to be when you grew up?

Speaker 2: 3:12

I wanted to be. There were a couple of things. It's never one thing for me, which is good. It was an actress or a teacher, I didn't know at the time. If we're going back, those were the things that my little Hilary had aspired to be. Those were two things, and then it shifted a little bit in college actually. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:38

Well, and I guess our listeners will get to see through our conversation today, where I do think, because I know you well, I do think that that thread of teaching is definitely through your career and people will hear that. So, from a high level, take us through a bit of your career journey, oh boy.

Speaker 2: 3:59

I graduated and I thought that I was going. I got a bachelor's in psychology. I had no idea what I was doing. It was just a message from my father that you need to get a job and you need to start paying rent. So I landed.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Thanks Bob. Thanks Bob, but he was great. He said you know, hilary, you need to start thinking about how you're going to get a job. Back in the day we didn't have emailing systems right, so he said I want you to put your resume in a hot pink envelope and hand deliver it. And I landed a job in advertising. My nearest and dearest on my dad's side was the chairman of SVA Advertising and Design, richie Watt, and he's a mentor amongst mentors and he, you know, somehow we just started talking to figuring out what I would do, and I had always loved to write poetry. I lost my mom earlier on in life and it was. It was a way for me to really express myself again.

Speaker 2: 4:56

The arts was coming up, and so I found a job answering phones at at the time it was Kirschenbaum and Bond, it's now Forzman Vettifers and I answered the phones. I logged in portfolios, you know, creative portfolios, photography portfolios and I did that for about eight or nine months. And I took classes at SVA. I hated copywriting. I hated it, hated it, hated it. My brother is an executive creative director, a copywriter. I just couldn't stomach it. It wasn't good for me. But I loved to write and I realized that writing is not always going to come in the same way for everyone, and so someone had called me and said you know, my recruiter needs a recruiter. So, instead of becoming the creative, I started to help creatives find roles and I became a recruiter shortly after.

Speaker 2: 5:44

Within nine months, I was hired at a creative recruitment firm and they put me at the front door and they were like okay, you're going to answer phones, log in portfolios still. And I said okay, well, in six months, if you don't have me as a recruiter, I'm leaving, like I need to. Like I'm always an advocate for myself, really, said that out loud, sure enough, within six months, thankfully, very grateful and blessed that they got a doorbell and I found my way in the back recruiting copywriters, art directors, producers, all for the advertising industry, and it was yeah, it was incredible, it was fun. I just love, I love work and I just had a natural.

Speaker 2: 6:20

You know I always say I'm so insecure, but when it comes to certain things, I could really feel good about saying it and I have a good eye. I know what good commercial, what a commercial is going to be or a big concept is going to be, but I had a hard time coming up with the idea, but I knew it when I saw it and so I spent about four or five years doing that. I left that firm. I was recruited to go to another one which was Leslie K Inc. It became my.

Speaker 1: 6:44

I ended up becoming partners with her, which was K and black is one of the top recruiting firms, and you are the black from K and black. I'm the black and the K and the black.

Speaker 2: 6:53

Amazing, yeah. So uh, and we started to build it out more and more and it was an opportunity for me not just to recruit for creative but to really put myself out there, like you said, in a teaching perspective. Right, how can I find my little piece within it? And so I would do workshops at the one club or um. I did something at um, let's say it was uh, city College any of the universities we would just work with and be able to give back and give career advice and career coaching. Well, in a few years into my partnership, we built out a company called Career Happy, which was for just more of a younger population coming into the industry, figuring out really where they had to put their books together, had to put themselves out there in the world and just feeling good about that process. And so that enabled me to do that and I think I skipped over a piece.

Speaker 2: 7:46

While I was a Camblack, I got my master's in social work. I was 37 years old. I never felt like I was a good student growing up. I was psyched degree and I loved it. I thought you know, if I could do anything in life, what would I do, you know? Going back to that first question and it was working with children who had lost their parents or their siblings during inbrewment Turns out my internships. I did not want to work with children. You know everything changes and shifts.

Speaker 1: 8:10

When you get into it. It's theory, and then there's like concept, and then you're like this is the right thing for me, sure.

Speaker 2: 8:16

And I didn't. I didn't. So that coaching thing enabled me to tap into that side part, which didn't have to be about going to people's traumas, but to figure out what was going to make them feel better that day, right, or get the job that they were looking to get, or just decide in a better, a more intentional way. And so fast forward, 2020 hit and the firm was doing well, but COVID hit and things just were not great. And so the coaching was going okay and everything was fine. Covid hit, everything went south.

Speaker 2: 8:46

And then I got a call from WPP and decided to be both executive recruiter and executive coach. There I worked across mainly creative and strategy, and then on my last like week, I was finalizing a role for a CEO. So it offered me an opportunity to go from K and Black, where we really did more like junior, up to C-suite, to allow me to really start working with the C-suite as a C-suite executive. So, and it was something I kept wanting to do when we didn't do it and I wanted to, and then there it was it just it showed up you know works in mysterious ways and so I went to WPP.

Speaker 1: 9:22

I was able to learn so many different things From the inside, now which is really I always say my mom inside right, you get to see how it works, which is really for what you're doing today as a recruiter.

Speaker 2: 9:35

you know, having left WPP and now being back as a recruiter, it just gives you such a unique edge because you really understand what it's like to be on the inside 100%, and I also now I always said I felt like a little bit of a spy, like I went from being like internally, externally, and like hearing all these different things and how brilliant everyone was on the inside as well, and learning how we all want to help, like we're all in a placement of helping, right, and I think recruiters do happen to get a really bad name. I'm not saying there's not like some bad apples out there, you know, but I do think intent like the intent is for people to help people get a role, and during COVID, what happened, though, was when they brought me into WPP, they actually 2020 had hit, and before I was like, as I was entering there, we started something called allies in recruiting with a bunch of my friends in the ad business, and that was recruiters across the country, mainly from the advertising industry, internally and externally, coming together to help make the industry a more equitable and diverse place and really be there to advocate for the talent and figure out how we could do a better job ourselves as we're submitting talent, and who we're calling and how we're going about our process. So that was just like one thing that I'm sorry I didn't like put it in there, yeah. And then I learned a great deal WPP and they lost Pfizer and I thought I was safe and I was happy, and I was.

Speaker 2: 11:09

Let me say I was happy that I had a job and I love the people I was working with, but I wasn't happy doing I wasn't. It's something was a mess for me, like I didn't. My life was somehow feeling a little like vacant in a way, and I think part of that was I was I always think of. I don't know if everybody's going to know this, but I love Lucy. She had this episode where she was like putting chalk. She was on a conveyor belt, she was working on an assembly line and she just kept putting things into her like she couldn't get them in quick enough into the bins.

Speaker 2: 11:41

She kept stuffing them in her mouth after a while Right but right, that famous scene, yeah, that famous scene, and I just felt like I was a robot after a while and and I loved working with the talent and I and I really enjoyed helping people make their placements. But there was something like calling my my thing. I wasn't able to do it anymore and and I was having a hard time with that. And, sure enough, they lost Pfizer and unfortunately, I was part of one of their layoffs and you know, I just want to pause on that.

Speaker 1: 12:12

Yeah because I think so often people are afraid to acknowledge that maybe they're laid off or they're part of something. And I think the more that we talk about it, it is not a reflection of you, it is a reflection of the state of business. You may get caught up in that net and you may get laid off and it can be hard and we understand that. But the more we talk about it, the more I mean I joke all the time. My life was a signing bonus in a severance package. The first time I got laid off it was devastating. After that I was like just give me the numbers, let's go. What's the point of the numbers? Why are we going to negotiate Right? So I'm not minimizing your anyone's experience in it. I'm just saying that when we really look at it and talk about it, it's not so scary. It can still suck, but it is not as scary to be in the unknown when we're like we can get through it, we can get through it.

Speaker 1: 13:06

One day at a time, you can get through it and there are resources and services like people, like what you and I do, and others that can help people get through, and I think that there's a really important message. So thank you for acknowledging that you were part of a layoff?

Speaker 2: 13:20

Yeah, I think I wrote a post recently and I haven't even put it up yet, but it's about how it listed all of my roles and then one of them that I actually didn't tell you. That, I think, is the most important piece of the story is that in 2019, 1999, Leslie Kaye hired me and in 2001, she fired me, and in 2002, she hired me and in 2007, I became her partner and I stayed with her until 2020. And I love her to this day, and the best thing that probably happened to me in my life was getting fired. I wasn't part of a layoff, really, it was a fire. I was entitled. I thought I should have X because I made X, but it was 9-11.

Speaker 2: 14:06

And I just, you know, when I was acting in a way that was just not becoming and I needed that experience to really better understand, and part of the reason I wanted to make the post and what you're talking about is you know, it's like Instagram for me, right? This highlight reel. Should I crop this? Should I do this? You know all these things and then it's really, instead of the highlight reel R-E-E-L, it should really be the highlight reel R-E-A-L, right? So that we are doing a service for other people because every time we admit that we are going through something, there's someone out there who is definitely feeling the same and who needs to know that they are not alone. And it is scary and some people aren't in the same situation. You know, I was stressed because financially I support two children and it's very. You know it's a lot or some people are supporting there. It could be their animals, which could cost tens of that. It could be an elderly.

Speaker 1: 15:02

It could be their parents, right, parents are aging.

Speaker 2: 15:03

It could be an aunt, it could be anyone that they care about, and it could be themselves and their own medical needs. And so I think, the more to your point, the more that we talk about the reel versus the reel, I think that it will allow us to. Also, it quiets our saboteur, that voice that's making me feel like a piece of crap, because that's what it was doing.

Speaker 1: 15:28

That's what it does right Because we make it. We often make it personal, as if there's something wrong with us, versus sometimes there are marketplace conditions, sometimes your company has not done the appropriate forecasting and strategic work that they needed to do, that they then have a situation in which they need to lay people off. That doesn't make you bad or not good enough. It just means sometimes things really suck and you're part of it, but there is another side of it.

Speaker 1: 15:57

So I want to go a little deeper there with you. I mean, I have so many questions. You and I could probably make this a multiple part series, that's good.

Speaker 1: 16:06

I want to talk a bit about managing the setbacks and potentially rejection during the job search. I mean, between all of your certifications and on top of being a recruiter, you see the wins and it's probably so exciting when you help connect a company and a candidate and you see that match starting and being like yes, and then it's probably also because I know you it's probably also like a little disappointing when you see someone who is going through a series of setbacks. So what advice would you give to a candidate in this market for managing those setbacks?

Speaker 2: 16:45

So there's this thing that I learned when I was getting my master's in social work, and I do this with a lot of people. You take that thought, that negative thought, that really big thought, right. Like for me it was I'm never going to get a job, how am I going to support my children? I'm going to end up on the street, like. I take it to a whole other level.

Speaker 1: 17:04

I'm right there with you too.

Speaker 2: 17:06

I hope my fears too, and you know I'm catastrophizing fortune telling. I mean I'm literally might as well open up my own circus. So there's this concept that they do in cognitive behavioral training, where they you take that negative thought, I'm never going to get another job again, right. And then you do an evidence to support that comment and I guarantee anyone who's listening to this that list is going to be very small, especially if you've been in your career for a long time. And then the other side is everything that goes against that and it's going so if it says for me, I'm never going to get another job again, well, I'm going to list my whole career history. I'm going to list every single person I know. And what it really comes down to is it's not if it's when, right. So it's not that you're not going to land something. It's about how do we sustain ourselves during the time that we have to deal with the weight right?

Speaker 1: 18:06

The weight part is yeah, when we're in the hallway, as I like to call it. How do you deal with that? So that's what I'd love. What are some of the things that you have found most successful, both in yourself and then working with clients to deal with the weight?

Speaker 2: 18:19

The weight is about being a part of your process, but it's also about being gentle with yourself. So and I'm much better at telling people you know advising than I am taking my advice but I do believe it works and I, when people work it, it does work, yes. So, for example, if it doesn't all have to be about your search, because if all you're doing all day is looking for a job, you're going to feel worse if all day you don't have a response back.

Speaker 1: 18:47

You and I are singing from the same hymnal. This is exactly what I say all the time. Yeah, if you are in that energy, you start the day potentially motivated or optimistic, and then, if you're spending all day staring at your MacBook looking for work, by the end of the day you're now you're searching for a job with the feeling of pessimism or, you know, defeated or overwhelmed and like you have to put a limit on it. Yes, you need to be. Your job is to find a job, but think for yourself is it a couple of hours a day? Are there afternoons? Or maybe you don't do it in the morning, Maybe you do it in the afternoon, so you have a different start to your day.

Speaker 1: 19:27

I like to say, as you and I have talked about before, like the universe gives you the gift of time. Yeah, so there's a reason in this moment where you're not working. Yes, you need to find a job, but what else do you want to do at that time? Do you want to work on your health and fitness? Do you want to get a certification? Do you want to go to LinkedIn, any of the learning and take some of those? Like, what else can you be doing? So it's not the heaviness of I don't have a job, I don't have a job, I don't have a job, I got a fine one.

Speaker 2: 19:54

And it's also about the permission to do absolutely nothing. Oh, love that. It's permission to say OK. You know, and I was talking to my, my dear friend today, that we know and and she's worked 30 years one of the most successful people I know. She already probably has people like going to offer something soon and she's like I don't know what to do, I'm not doing anything today. I'm like you know and the other expression is right that you know the universe does for us that which we cannot do for ourselves.

Speaker 2: 20:22

I'm like I felt that way about the VIP Like sometimes you're given a gift and the gift feels really crappy and it's look, it comes out like the gift they give you and you're like OK, your gift is, you're getting let go. It doesn't sound that way. But this woman walked down the street with to me one day as another. It was like a mom at a school and she's like how are you doing? And I'm such a like I just say everything on my mind. So I'm like I lost my job. You know this big planning moment. I'm like I'm great, I'm blessed, but I lost my job. And she was like congratulations, and I said that hits, talk about it.

Speaker 1: 20:55

trigger. You want to be like what do you mean?

Speaker 2: 21:00

But at the same time, for someone to say that it had to be some pretty spiritual stuff like congratulations. I had to think about it, like OK, so I'm 51 years old, I am the biggest complainer in the world and lately it's about this heading about don't engage. So don't engage with the people that are going to make you feel crappy. Know your audience and don't engage with your negative self-talk, sometimes Like, oh, you shouldn't be watching the entire season of suits that just came out in under four hours. Well, I had to be OK. Like you know, I could have gotten my certain certifications done during the sabbatical that I had during that time off. I didn't. And now I'm like guilty, yeah, and I felt guilty about today, and you know what I said. It doesn't matter, I didn't, and you know what I rested, it's.

Speaker 1: 21:48

OK, it's also. That's the way it was supposed to happen. How do we know? Because that's the way it happened, it happened.

Speaker 2: 21:56

And there's no right to it. It really goes back into the engagement, right? So how do you? Because during that time, to your point, what is it? And even if it's making a simple list, a big list person, whether you go through it or not, it's like, ok, I really want to do these things. And of those big, there were two massive things on that list that I could have accomplished in those four months and I didn't do them. And I have to be OK with it, like I can't get that's OK. It is just literally permission to do nothing. Or, to your point, also, making sure you carve out time.

Speaker 2: 22:30

So I said to my friend today I said, ok, you know what, on Friday, if you're worried you're not going to the gym today, just tell yourself on Friday, when you're upstate, you'll go for the walk then, so that you know it's on the horizon. You make a plan. Yeah, you have a plan, because our worst relationship becomes about ourselves, with ourselves during this time. Yes, and we start to beat ourselves up. Some of us do, at least I know I do, and I'm a feeler. I feel everything so deeply and it's exhausting. So guess what Some things about? Like are you an introvert, are you an extrovert? During your job loss Right or your transition, whatever, wherever you are, if you decided to leave, or you're part of a layoff or you got fired, however you want to spin it. Someone said to me yesterday that I just want to say is she's said I just feel uncomfortable that my job, career, my journey was not linear, and I said I don't even speak linear in an image.

Speaker 1: 23:23

And I'm not laughing at them because that's a common thought but at a certain point I can tell my own story. I can tell stories of friends, colleagues and clients where it is shoots and ladders. My friends, there is no linear. Sometimes we work adjacent, sometimes we take a side step, sometimes we take a lower title, but it works for us for different reasons. I mean, I have a friend who talks regularly about she's coming up on the podcast soon and she went through some enormous trauma various deaths of people around her and when she came back post the trauma, she decided to go for a step back in level and was completely clear about it. When she interviewed people, like, well, why aren't you going for the blah blah, blah? She was like because I know where I am. This is the right place for me to be right now, and when you're so clear you're going to be right. It's like come at me and ask me another question. Yeah, it's when you're not clear that someone then is a jerk and starts to look for the blood in the water.

Speaker 2: 24:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:30

But if you're like, you know what. I've been through a series of deaths and trauma and I've taken the time off, I've healed. It's been a year or two and here's where I am and I'm not going to go for the VP role. I actually would prefer more the senior manager role, like what a gift for a company to be able to get that level of talent. But we're also both clear. She's like I didn't want the responsibility of being the VP, I wanted the responsibility of being the senior manager, and that is not a failure. If anything, I would say that is a level of vulnerability and a win that you know yourself well. She can change her mind at some point. No, it's self-advocacy.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Self-advocacy, self-advocacy at its best. And the other thing that during that time, when you have off, you know it's about it's a reassessment, it's a realignment. It's not for me. I've been saying lately it's not a midlife crisis, it's a midlife reevaluation. Right, I realized that I always used to. It depends also generationally, right. We come from a generation at least I do where it was all about you have to work, you go to work, you come home, you go to, but that's all we did.

Speaker 1: 25:33

We're Gen Xers for the audience listening.

Speaker 2: 25:36

Yeah, well, we did. And so when we get to a place where I'm like, wow, I don't want to work the way I used to work, and I'm like, but that was my whole identity, was my job, well, maybe it shouldn't be my whole identity anymore. And then I'm like, well, well, what happens if I don't? Well, well, well, I can go down such a well that I'm literally drowning into a place and there it absolutely so. My new thing is okay, how is this serving me? This moment right now is it's. How is it? How is it serving me?

Speaker 2: 26:01

So, if we go back to that woman that I spoke to, her point was is nothing's linear? And I told her nothing's linear. And I said the nice thing is, if your story is neat, that's okay. Great, it's easier, maybe, to tell. I said, if it's not neat and it is a little messy, I always used to tell my kids, even though I am a clean freak, I would say this and act as if. What does it mean if we have a mess? And they would say it means we're having fun, and so I believe that it's how we tell the story. Then how unique, all in the career narrative.

Speaker 2: 26:32

It adds an extra layer of creativity to our story. It's the narrative. That's it. If you, to your friends, point right. I had an employee once who is incredible and the way I was trained is we had to go after the jobs and we have to go after the candidates. It wasn't like we had somebody going after new business and then I was just recruiting, right.

Speaker 1: 26:51

It wasn't an assembly line, you were doing both.

Speaker 2: 26:53

I was doing both, and here at my new job I manage clients and then there's recruiters and I have to tell you it is nicer because I can focus. Well, this woman came to me during her her review and she said I don't want to do of what we call a full desk, I don't want to go after new clients, I like recruiting and that's what I want to do, sort of how she was trained and I'm like but that's just not how we do it. Guess what I later realized, after she'd started to just do that that's what she was best at, that is what she enjoyed. And that is why came black always had people staying five, eight, 10 years.

Speaker 2: 27:26

Because it's about saying to your employees what is going to make you happy. And if you don't have an employer right now, ask yourself okay, what will make me happy? And part of that going back to school thing for me was that I said to myself I might not ever do it, but why don't I just take one class, and if I like it I'll take another, and if I and if not, then I'm done. But at least it's something I like. And if it means that you just need to take a nap today, that's okay too.

Speaker 1: 27:54

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, hillary, everything you're saying I mean we have put so much pressure on ourselves and if you are ambitious and driven, keep on keeping on. We're talking about when you've been working 25 plus years and you haven't had a day off and you're not on a vacation, having that pause. I mean we're even seeing numbers coming out with, like AARP and some of the research that if we are, if we are going to be living into our 80s and 90s, we're not probably I mean those of us that are financially blessed amazing, but we're probably taking pauses from work at certain times and not necessarily retiring at 60 or 65, right, because you have another 30 years of life left. You're having this idea of what does it look like next and that everything you've seen in books and TV and media and news, so what you get to choose for yourself.

Speaker 1: 28:52

Again, you have to have your financial requirements met. You want your international simulation met If you want to do meaningful work or making a difference. You need to think through those things and working with a mentor or a coach is obviously great ways of helping you figure that out. But you have this idea that, like I mean, my husband is older than me and he started his career as a high fashion photographer.

Speaker 2: 29:14

Oh my God, I didn't even know that part. Okay.

Speaker 1: 29:17

And then he followed, which is hilarious because by choice, he followed circuses the Big Apple Circus, which is a very humane circus. He followed circuses because he loved the moment of action between, like, where it all comes together with the acupress right. That the that capturing that moment. Okay. And today he's a fitness professional Because he always had fitness as part of his life. Fitness always got him through the things in his life.

Speaker 1: 29:45

So this idea that he had career, number one, which was beautiful and lucrative and gave him major experiences and stories for days of the talent and the celebrities, and then he just did it on the fitness side, right. So my point is you could say like well, those have nothing to do with one another and it's like no, it was about for him. How does he create success? How does he create a lovely experience, whether it's for the person on set or the person in front of him that he's training, right, it's the same. You have to think about it in the broader picture and stop listening to everyone who's like shitting all over you and telling you that you need to like crack the habits and do the things and do the 20 million like if you want to go for it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:32

The money thing is what comes into play. And when I hear people doing talks or something, or I see, oh, I quit my job to become to do what I love to do and you know, as a primary earner for the family, I would almost solely, let's say, 90%. It's a lot and it puts pressure. And one of the things I did is there's a company I'll tell you about that you could share with your viewers later. That helped me. It was actually for millennials, a financial company for millennials that I worked with. Did I follow everything they said I should do? I didn't, and I'm not going to sit here ever and tell you I did, but it was pretty remarkable. They get all of your stuff in order to help you assess how much money you have, where you should put, where, what's-.

Speaker 1: 31:16

Oh good so financial wellness.

Speaker 2: 31:18

It's financial wellness during job loss. To me, we'll just, you know, instead of just ignoring it, saying okay, well, this, I do need a job. You know, my sister-in-law is a she's a, she's a Juilliard grad and she's an actress. She was in Harry Potter, she's done tons of stuff and she's not acting right this second. And I said to her that is your, that is your career, and then your job might be to be a copywriter. She's taking copywriting classes, she's a great writer. Because they need some. You know she wants to make some money for herself.

Speaker 2: 31:51

And so I said to her remember, it's okay for you to have some of us have to get a job, you know, that's okay, it's totally fine. You have to have a job, but never if there's keep, just keep that hook onto the thing that gives you joy. So for me, right now, for example, like I told you, I do my coaching on this, like I still allow myself to do that coaching on the side, and it's just about making sure you just keep your foot in that. And it's okay if things are not like, if it's a quiet day, and if it's not tap into that thing that makes you happy and and any, just remember you don't need to engage with that negative self that that negative tape is. So I call it an eight tracks tape because that's from our generation, that's what they use on the tapes. But I just I find that the process is really, it feels to some degree I'm not going to say traumatic, like you know, like like small tea trauma.

Speaker 1: 32:44

It is traumatic. It is traumatic.

Speaker 2: 32:46

Small tea trauma? Sure it is, and it's traumatic in for different reasons, for different people. Some people can have a lot of money, but that's all they've ever done, right, some people could have and you lose your identity. Then, yeah, you lose your identity, some people it's all different reasons. I think it's about not engaging as much with that really negative and saying, okay, this isn't serving me a purpose. What can I do with this moment to make me feel better?

Speaker 1: 33:09

And I think, bringing it back around when you were talking about cognitive behavioral practices. You know it's also very Byron, katie, the author, who talks about like is it true? And you're going to find evidence that it's true. And then it's like, can I prove that it's true? And now you start getting a little shaky in the belief because you're like, well, you can't, I have some evidence, but that doesn't mean it's proof that it's true. Right, we look for evidence, we're going to find it.

Speaker 1: 33:34

So, understanding that that voice is normal, that voice is based on evolutionary biology, that voice is there to protect you. But sometimes we let the voice run wild. Right, as you and I have talked before, you know you lost your mom, I lost my brother recently, tragically, suddenly, and you know it is not rational. But that voice comes in that my whole family's going to die. Now, my whole family's going to be dying and I'm going to be finding people in parks and I'm going to have to ship bodies home, like all the trauma from that. And then it's like, okay, that voice isn't it's true for me, but it's not true.

Speaker 1: 34:08

And just allowing the space and I think, the other thing in the job search and when you go through some of these milestones that may be traumatic for you. It's really allowing the time when you can again. I understand financial obligations, trust me, you and I I mean you were self-employed, I'm self-employed, I understand financial obligations, but it's also knowing that you again sitting in front of a computer all day long trying to find a job, is not getting you a job faster. Letting the pause, the creativity and the pause part of you finding a job might be reading a book, watching a Hallmark movie, taking a walk, playing with a pet. Part of that is also giving that space. And I think if anybody takes away anything from this, it's just like us saying we understand, we've both been there. We're not saying it's easy, but you can get through it and come out the other side with a new perspective on how you want work to fit into your life, instead of your life fitting into work Exactly exactly Think about where some of your greatest ideas come.

Speaker 2: 35:16

Mine come from when I'm in, like you know, in random places.

Speaker 1: 35:18

When you're in pause, right In the shower. Yeah, I would say the shower. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:23

And that's being part of your process, I think is important in all those different ways, structurally and completely like in that messy way too yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:32

So, Hilary, tell everyone what you're doing today. Of course, I'm gonna put all of your information, the show notes, both as a recruiter and also your executive coaching work. Tell them about what you're doing today.

Speaker 2: 35:43

So right now I am doing new business at a company called Solomon Page, which is a staffing firm that places in every sector corporate doctors, lawyers, you name it and then finance. But then I am part of the creative and marketing division where we place across all different disciplines within this field and then I'm building out the executive search function so I'm hoping to bring in clients that will say, okay, we need a CEO, a CSO or whatever that might be. And then I also practice as an executive coach and I work with agencies, individuals, client side, brand side, you know, and my way is really more. It's informal, and part of that is is because I am I'm not this very formal person and then my saboteur tells me like you don't have structure, you don't have this, you don't have that, and the best way I'm learning to be myself is just being like it's okay that you are who you are, and part of that was that I wasn't a corporate, I'm not a corporate American. Like I'm not, that's not who you are right.

Speaker 2: 36:52

No and that's just. That's okay, and that's okay. My intelligence is emotional intelligence. It's not to say that I don't have some book smart or that I'm not book smart. It just means that, like it shows up differently, I'm just different.

Speaker 1: 37:04

Yeah, what a gift to know yourself, though, too. What a gift, yes yeah, so yeah, that's.

Speaker 2: 37:09

you know, those are the things that we're doing right now.

Speaker 1: 37:12

Yeah. So thank you for sharing your wisdom, thank you for sharing yourself. I think this has been a great honest, raw, real, vulnerable conversation and I appreciate you so much for showing up today and having this conversation with me. I know that people will benefit and, if nothing else, just have the sigh of like okay, yeah, that's okay, that's where we're at and it's all gonna be okay.

Speaker 1: 37:33

So I thank you so much for being here. Again, I will put all of your information in the show notes so people know where to find you and follow you on LinkedIn. And, as always to everyone, here is to possibility and I'll see you soon. Thanks so much.