Negotiation Happens in Everyday Spaces: A Conversation with Dr. Beth Fisher-Yoshida, Expert in Communication and Negotiation

Whether you are negotiating your next job offer or advocating for your team, we are constantly negotiating. In this episode, I dive into the world of negotiation with Dr. Beth Fisher-Yoshida, an expert in communication and negotiation and author of "New Story, New Power: A Woman’s Guide to Negotiation. Tune in to learn more about: 

• How to boost your negotiation skills
• The power of sitting in silence
• Why you need to scenario plan
• Real-world advice and practical tips

Mentioned on the show:
New Story, New Power: A Woman’s Guide to Negotiation, by Dr. Beth Fisher-Yoshida

Show Guest:
Dr. Beth Fisher-Yoshida is an educator, executive coach, and President of Fisher Yoshida International, specializing in negotiation and communication. She directs the MS in Negotiation and Conflict Resolution at Columbia University, has authored multiple books, and served as a Training Manager at McKinsey & Company, Japan.
Learn more on her Website.

Chapters

• 0:00 Negotiation
• 13:08 Effective Negotiation Strategies and Preparation
• 24:59 Building Trust and Effective Negotiation

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey friends, I am Jill Griffin, the host of the Career Refresh podcast, and today I am bringing you a conversation where we are discussing negotiation. We're always negotiating, my friends, and today I have guest Dr Beth Fisher Yoshida. She is an educator, an executive coach and the author of New Story, new Power A Woman's Guide to Negotiation, which is available on Amazon but listen, this is not just about women which is available on Amazon. But listen, this is not just about women. This is about all genders. There are definitely nuances, depending on your gender around negotiation, but this is an episode that you definitely want to dig in. Grab that notes app and make some notes. Dr Fisher-Yushida brings a wealth of experience from her work in global organizations and her role as president and CEO of Fisher Yoshida International. It's a consulting firm and her clients have included global organizations in the Fortune 500, the private sector, the United Nations, nonprofit, government, military, security forces, community schools, districts and academic institutions. She is a expert communicator and negotiator and whether you are negotiating your next job offer or advocating for your team, we are constantly negotiating. So in this episode, we dive into the nuances of negotiation and we also talk about how to boost your skills. You need to be ready. You need to be prepared, you need to be practicing because, again, you are always negotiating.

Speaker 1: 1:24

The power of allowing and sitting in silence, right, we joked about how it is very both of us are New Yorkers. It's very. Uh, it's a common thing that we do that when I say something and if you don't respond, I might say something again and we go and close that space, right? But as expert communicators and negotiators and, frankly, trained expert executive coaches, know that the power of silence and holding that space and just letting it sit there is so powerful in negotiation. It allows someone or the person that you're talking to a moment to formulate their thoughts and give a response. Otherwise it's called a soliloquy and you're the one who's talking and you're not actually negotiating. We talk about why you need to scenario plan and how to do some tapping into, some visualization and to getting rid of stories that are in your head and some of your triggers around negotiation so that you can be a more powerful negotiator.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Lastly, we round out with the tips and the real word of advice that you can implement this week because you are always in negotiation. So, friends, dig in. I know you are going to appreciate and enjoy this episode and, as always, I want to hear from you. So you can email me at hello at jillgriffincoachingcom, and we will get your questions answered. All right, friends, I will see you on the other side. Welcome, beth. I'm really glad that you are here today to have this conversation.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Thank you so much, jill. I'm really looking forward to it, as well.

Speaker 1: 2:43

So I always ask my guests to take us back and to tell us what you think you wanted to be when you grew up.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Well, you know, I actually said that I did not want to be a teacher when I reflected on my work. I've been some kind of educator my whole life, so there went that out the window. I've either worked with corporations, doing workshops and training or different kinds of organizational effectiveness, or being a professor and so on. So I've always been in some kind of learning, teaching mode. I didn't know, but I did know that I wanted to be interesting and I did know that I wanted to do interesting things because there had been a couple of different older women in my life, starting with my art teacher at 10 years old, who were very interesting and very eccentric but they had such rich lives and I said that's what I want. I didn't know exactly how or what, but I wanted to have an interesting, rich life with lots of experiences. So that's kind of been my MO in how I make selections of what I do.

Speaker 1: 3:49

I love that it's like an internal GPS is what's interesting and that sounds good, let me try that. One of the things when I was prepping to interview you today, this idea that you spent 13 years in Japan, and I would love to hear, like how that came out. And then the part two of the question would be how do you think that influences your work stateside, coming back to Columbia University, and then the work you're doing within your own company?

Speaker 2: 4:18

Yeah, so I've always been an overachiever. So I had, of course, a double major undergraduate and one of my majors was art. Because I have an art background, I went to music and art. Like I said, I had the art teacher at 10. I went to music and art for high school. I majored in art in college with also special education, and then I was traveling around Europe the shorter version I fell in love with Van Gogh's interpretation of woodblock prints from Japan.

Speaker 2: 4:43

When I came back to the US, I worked here a little bit and then I started studying Japanese calligraphy and the woman I was studying with said do you want to go to Japan and live with the family and teach English? And I said, yeah, that sounds good. So I went there. Just like that, no biggie. Just like that, no, no big deal. So I said, oh, this is it saying to myself once you get married and have children. That wasn't even a priority for me at the time, but I knew that once I took a regular job that I wouldn't be able to just pick up and go. So I had to do all these things. Priorities change, yeah, right, before I got too stable. So I went there and I studied art and lived with the family for a little bit and then lived separately and also taught at the international schools, got married, had two daughters, worked at McKinsey and Company. So I did lots of different things within those 13 years Wow.

Speaker 1: 5:29

So all of that, though, was while you were still in Japan.

Speaker 2: 5:33

That was all. That's just my 13 years in Japan Six and a half and then I came back to the US for almost four and then went back for another six and a half. So the first half was in the international school system and the second half was working at McKinsey and Company.

Speaker 1: 5:48

And then, how did you make your way to Columbia? How did that come to fruition?

Speaker 2: 5:52

You know so Columbia. I actually had my first master's in special ed from Teachers College at Columbia University and it's a wonderful program and allowed me to be in Japan at the time working and doing independent studies during the year and in the summer, come to the campus.

Speaker 2: 6:09

So then when I came back from Japan and after working at McKinsey Company, I started to build, you know, totally high on the stress scale no job, new house, all that kind of stuff. So I then started working at the UN as a consultant and in one of the workshops I did I worked with people from Colombia, which brought me back into Colombia working at the Conflict Resolution Center, which I worked at for about 10 years, and then I moved across the street, which is a big deal in Colombia 120th Street is very wide. And then I said I've been doing that now since 2008 in my current position.

Speaker 1: 6:45

So that makes me, as we get into the book that you've written, it makes me wonder how has your experience working with all of these diverse organizations McKinsey, fortune 100 companies, united Nations how has that influenced your approach to negotiation and conflict resolution?

Speaker 2: 7:25

no-transcript, somebody would continue saying something I'm like, oh my God. So the stress of that, not knowing, because the conversational cues were just so different. So then that means, as a mediator or a negotiator, I am able to sit with silence longer than I used to be able to do before I left. So that's one very significant impact that I have, because if you don't give people a chance to speak and don't give them a chance to formulate their thoughts, then you're always jumping in and filling in the space and then you're really not hearing from them. It's really a monologue.

Speaker 2: 8:02

So that really is something that influenced me a lot Other ways is that I understand the difficulty. So I learned the theory and I do the practice and I'm going back and forth and then thinking about teaching it, and my first thought every time I hear about something, read something, see something, is how can I use that, how can I take that and integrate it into what I'm doing? Thing is how can I use that, how can I take that and integrate it into what I'm doing? So, working with so much diversity not only Japan, but I mean in the US any group of people two people is already diversity. How do you get a diverse group of people to not necessarily hold the same beliefs but at least hold the same space where they can share those beliefs and understand each other the way they want to or need to be understood. That is just so nuanced in communication that I am amazed that anybody communicates effectively at all, because it's so complicated and so easy to just go down the wrong direction.

Speaker 1: 8:56

Right, and it also just makes me think, like whether we're talking locally, nationally or globally. When we think about a lot of the conflicts that are having in our world today, it's like no one can hear each other over their anger. And no one can hear each other because they're not listening, they're only talking.

Speaker 2: 9:13

That's right.

Speaker 1: 9:13

Really powerful.

Speaker 2: 9:14

Even global issues are local. All the issues bleed in because we have so much news all the time and with social media, we get a lot of information, not always accurate and that sometimes very biased, but we get a lot of information. It's information overload, so we're always in contact with what's happening around the world in some way.

Speaker 1: 9:38

So in your book New Story, new Power A Woman's Guide to Negotiation. Obviously our female listeners are going to be sitting up straight and listening and grabbing those notes, but I believe all genders can benefit from the work that you've done. Can you share some of the common challenges that you see women face in negotiations, and part two of that is then how we address those challenges.

Speaker 2: 10:00

Yeah, so it's. Sometimes people say, okay, fix the woman right. That's what a lot of things are geared towards, like send them to training, send them to workshops. They have to toughen up the whole thing right. Or you say, well, we also need to work with other people who are in conversation with them, in negotiations with them and the systems. So it's really a combination.

Speaker 2: 10:20

And there's also a lot of mixed research about how effective or ineffective women are in the workplace. So we still have the different kinds of statistics that show that women still get less money on average than men, and depending if you're a white woman or a woman of color, that changes as much too. So there still are those statistics there. So even for those people who say, well, women can still show up well, yes, they can, and there are many women who do show up well in negotiations. But it doesn't mean that it's not more challenging for them that the style of negotiation is still very male oriented in how it's set up.

Speaker 2: 10:58

So one example is women are known for being very relational. I mean, these are overgeneralizations, right, not every woman and not every man is not Overgeneralization, but we're known for being more relational. But if we lead with that, obviously or overtly, in a negotiation it may work against us, because there's always this backlash that happens. So I think, well, just don't make it overt, just be relational, because that's the way you are. So I think, well, just don't make it overt, just be relational, because that's the way you are. So I think women need to be aware of how they are perceived, because as soon as they hear your name, or as soon as you walk in a room or show up on Zoom, right away preconceived notions are going to kick in. And even if you're not that person, just because you're a woman, certain associations get attributed to you and women just need to be aware of that and recognize if that's in play and then what to do about that in those cases.

Speaker 1: 11:48

Can you give an example or a common example?

Speaker 2: 11:51

Yeah. So, for example, I've interviewed quite a few women who work in the STEM professions more science, engineering related professions and the stereotype there is that people in those fields are more factual, more evidence-based, less emotional. It doesn't mean they don't have emotions, it just means that's not how they lead in their thinking and their work. So if a woman is known to be women and known to be more emotional if they see a woman, then it's like, oh my God, I'm going to have to deal with these emotions. And then if a woman shows anything that looks like an emotion that's too much for the other person to handle, they shut down because they can no longer listen.

Speaker 2: 12:28

That's the other thing is that people just they can't handle what they can't handle in terms of how you communicate with them. So some of the women I've interviewed had said what they needed to do and these are women, have been in those fields for 25, 30 years, so they have a lot of expertise. They've said we need to meet those people we're working with where they are and then rational, evidence-based because that's how they hear me and then, as I build a relationship, I can introduce more emotion in there because we already have a relationship, we already know each other. They already know how to understand me, so that doesn't cloud their thinking and then just put them off on the side as less valuable contributors because they're emotional.

Speaker 1: 13:08

Yeah, and I guess, as just I'm listening you say that the frustration that comes up in me is that because of this, in this example, STEM right you as a female, then, are modifying your own behavior to work within the system versus genders meeting and becoming equal and then finding the way, the path forward. So how do you? You talk a lot about mindset in the book. How do you help women overcome that level of frustration that, like that, it's the invisible labor they need to do in order to meet the peer in the situation?

Speaker 2: 13:48

So we're not changing who we are in terms of being inauthentic. Right, you still are bringing your authentic self. If you're bending too much, then you have to question why am I doing that? I'm compromising my own integrity. So you know, you have to think about what's the goal. What's the goal at the end of the day? If the goal is to get something accomplished, is to get something done, is to get something to be understood or agreed upon, what do you need to do to meet that other party where they are? Because I think you meet them and then you bring them a little bit where you want them to be.

Speaker 2: 14:14

We can't just go in making demands that well, you need to adjust to the way I communicate. Then why aren't I? You know, it's like so many times, like if people say, oh, I'm, why didn't you call me? You know, and I'm like all right, well, you didn't call me either, but I didn't say, you know, like I used to tease my father saying you know, phones go both ways. So that's there too.

Speaker 2: 14:37

So my feeling is you know what, as long as I'm not compromising myself, I'm willing to put things out there, but it doesn't mean I'm not assertive or firm in asking for what I want. That's the other piece. So you're not bending over and just capitulating to the other side. You're leaning into the conversation in a way that you can be heard and they can hear you, and then you bring them over and then you can ask for what you want and then, because you're working it out, you're establishing relationship. If that's our strength and that's what we're doing, then that's what we should be doing and establishing the relationship. And then it depends, of course, how important that person is to you, how important this particular negotiation is Is it a long-term relationship or not? How much effort you want to put into it.

Speaker 1: 15:21

Okay, so that makes me think about the you know, almost the prep work one needs to do in order to come to that conversation, and I know that you talk a lot about the role of storytelling and the role that that plays within the negotiation. So how does storytelling and the prep work come together to you know, start that ask or start that negotiation conversation?

Speaker 2: 15:41

Great question. Thank you for that. So it's really. The prep work is, first of all, way more than people think it should be, or they think it is, and I say winging it is not a strategy, right? Exactly Part of the prep work is knowing what are the stories that we carry about ourselves.

Speaker 2: 15:58

What are the stories we carry about who we are as negotiators, who that other person is, how important the issue is. I need to uncover all of that for myself so I understand what's working in my favor or against me. So, for example, if an issue is super important to me, then I'm probably going to be more emotionally attached to it and that may show up in the negotiations. So I need to monitor that if I don't want to show all of those emotions about it. And I need to understand if somebody or a particular thing is challenging to me. I need to know that so that I don't cower away, that I know that that challenge is going to come up. How am I going to face that challenge?

Speaker 2: 16:35

So all of that is the prep work. If you tell yourself, oh my God, this is the most difficult conversation I'm going to have, I can't do it. You've already lost the negotiation because you underestimated yourself, you took away any confidence you may have. If you say you know this is challenging and I'm ready for the challenge and here's why I'm ready and I built up all these different things, and then not over being overconfident but or like overshooting for what you can get, but that you're prepared to have a challenging conversation. Because at the end of the day, you know, what I like to think of in the framing of a negotiation is it's a conversation and it's building a relationship, and that's how I frame it, which helps me not feel overcome by somebody who may have a much higher stature or intimidated.

Speaker 2: 17:22

Yeah, intimidating or a super important issue.

Speaker 1: 17:25

Right. So I think for our listeners, you know this again is one of the opportunities to grab that notes app and take some notes. But I think it's what Beth is saying and, as longtime listeners of this show know, is that I often talk about you need to be ready and prepared. You need to do both. One is a mindset, one is doing your homework. So if you were going to a negotiation, whether it's for an internal opportunity, an internal promotion, if you're going for an external, on a job interview or anything in between, you need to. Actually, I'm going to tell you to outline your bullet points right, writing those down.

Speaker 1: 17:58

I always like hand to pen, to paper. Right, the precipitous mind. It helps much easier. If not, fine, grab that notes app and type it. But, like, you need to be intentional and be clear in what you're saying and practice that practicing might be walking around your room and saying the words out loud so they don't all feel like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah when you start talking and you start building that confidence. Those are the ways that you can actually be intentional as you go into this, because when the stakes are high and whether that's your career or the money you wanna make or any other of the things that you're advocating for. If you're not spending the time in practicing and it's a little bit unsure, or the first time you've done it that wobble may come through in the negotiation.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Do you?

Speaker 1: 18:40

have any? Beth? Do you have any thoughts for how someone can steady themselves when they feel that wobble come on?

Speaker 2: 18:47

Yeah, so the other thing I do recommend, which is also in the book, is what I call scenario planning, and I'm actually in the middle of challenging negotiations now, so I have to think about okay, if they say X, what's my response? How do I deal with that?

Speaker 1: 19:03

Beautiful.

Speaker 2: 19:04

If you don't have any of those prepared, then you're like a deer in the headlights because you're caught off guard. Now, there's always the chance that they're going to come back with something that you did not anticipate. But at least you have the confidence in you that you've explored a couple of different scenarios so that if that comes, you can say well, tell me more about that.

Speaker 2: 19:21

I haven't thought about it that way or something like that. So it buys you some time and also gets you some information. So you have to do that. And that addresses what might be the wobble, because if you're anticipating, then anything go wham and just throw you off course. So then you need to have a practice in yourself as well, and in the middle of the negotiation it's not the time to start the practice.

Speaker 2: 19:43

So if you do deep breathing or you do visualization or you do some kind of meditation, what do you do to center yourself? Right, that is really critical. So if you do yoga, then you're thinking about okay, what is Shavasana? Or something that you're in that kind of like relaxing pose. Or if you love the ocean, like what are the ocean waves like? Because you can't physically necessarily leave, sometimes you can get a break, but if you can't, then you have to take a mental break and you have to just recenter yourself and then you're back on course.

Speaker 2: 20:15

Because if you have a competitive style negotiation, the other side is going to try to throw you off course, to try to throw you off center, and so that's really important then to realize you know the stability, always try to recognize what's going on here, like, are they trying to do something here, or is it just my imagination? And then I kind of observe and then sometimes I may say something. That sort of surfaces with the dynamic I'm noticing, if it really gets to be a lot. You know, I'm noticing some resistance here. Can you tell me more about that? Do you feel that Because I'm feeling a pushback? Like, I name it, not initially because I'm thinking, well, maybe it's just me, but then, if it seems to be persisting and I do, I do name it because I want to get their reaction to see what's going on, because there might be something I'm just missing.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Okay Again. So that idea of being intentional doing scenario planning, I love the part where I'll call it mindset and mindful breathing, centering yourself. Are there other tips that you would?

Speaker 2: 21:17

recommend people to add to their preparation list for when they're going into negotiation. A ton Part three in the book. Part three has a lot, so there are lots of different tools that I offer in the book, and the idea there is that each kind of tool that you use or framework elicits different kinds of information, so it depends on what you want to know. I think knowing about yourself, knowing about the other person and understanding the issue is really important. There is a concept called BATNA, which is best alternative to a negotiated agreement, and that's something that came out of the Harvard School of the Program on Negotiation.

Speaker 2: 21:50

And one thing that's nice about BATNA is you need to know your BATNA, which means basically, how critical is this negotiation? Is everything on the line in this negotiation and I have no other alternatives? That puts a lot of pressure on me and my performance in that negotiation and at the same time, I'm trying to figure out what's the other side's BATNA, because if they have alternatives, they're just in it. They can ask whatever they want and if it doesn't work out, it's okay. So during the course of a negotiation, both sides are trying to assess what's the other side's BATNA, which lets you know how much leeway they have, how much flexibility they have in being able to negotiate.

Speaker 2: 22:28

Otherwise you're just between a rock and a hard place. So BATNA is important and, like I said, you know all the different ways you can understand yourself, understand your emotional triggers. And I would also say that if you're trying to develop your negotiation muscle, don't negotiate with the most challenging person about the most challenging issue. To start. Go small, build your confidence, build your skill and then you can go for the more challenging ones afterwards no-transcript to feel taken advantage of.

Speaker 1: 23:31

No one wants to feel that they gave everything and got nothing. So having something where both sides of the table had to give a little bit is actually what's going to create a better, a long-term working relationship. Because, remember, the negotiation is the start of the process. Depending on what it is, you still have to work together or you still have to push through on whatever advocacy you're working on, and if it's so contentious, then every time someone like colors out of the lines or messy humans come to the table, we're going to be in some sort of frothy emotion. That isn't going to help us move forward. So when you think about that, beth, I'd love to hear and you talk a little bit about when you feel like the person you're negotiating is not being forthcoming with the negotiation, and how there's like a strategy to really drill down on close-ended questions or factual information. Talk a little bit about that. I'd love for people to learn more about that.

Speaker 2: 24:27

So in general, if you just I mean there are different styles, but let's just say collaboration versus competition in a negotiation setting, so in a competitive orientation, people do not want to share information. They do not trust, they do not feel safe and they want to win. That's the mentality, and maybe they feel threatened or they just want to pounce right. So they're not going to share information, because information is power as well. The more you know, then, the more you can position yourself and the more you understand what's going on with the dynamics of the other side. So if you ask a closed question, then it gets a very short, specific answer which is a little bit less threatening and it allows the conversation to at least get started. For example, if I say to somebody well, tell me more about how you feel that that's not going to work because that's getting too much information. But I'm saying like so you didn't feel good. No, I didn't Okay. But I'm saying like so you didn't feel good. No, I didn't okay that's close or are you agreeing to go?

Speaker 2: 25:25

no, I'm not, so any just very short kinds of questions and then I get okay, so in that case you wouldn't go and in a different case you might go yes, okay, now can you tell me another, like one other situation still limited. So you're kind of going along there trying to build trust in that situation, because that's critical. So those are some of the different characteristics. Like sometimes people say to me oh yeah, I'm very collaborative and then I, every behavior they have is not anything but collaborative.

Speaker 1: 25:53

Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2: 25:54

I'm like, well, yeah, what do you mean by that? You know, I was like it seems super competitive to me because people say, like even the words you know, I'm very sensitive to wording. So it's something like, yeah, I have to convince them of something. And I say, okay, you're convincing them because you're right, yeah, my way is better. I thought, okay, that's kind of competitive because you're not acknowledging what might be right about their approach or why they may hold on to their beliefs. So even those kinds of words reflect an orientation.

Speaker 1: 26:21

So it's so interesting you say that? Because, even as you just gave that example, I have to convince them that I'm right. I also see the word convince, as there's an insecurity on your part like right so? So there's the nature of that. Again, those nuances. There's a lot going on in the room or in the conversation that's not spoken, that needs to be navigated. All all right, I want to give you a real.

Speaker 2: 26:42

I'm sorry. Go ahead say one more thing that when I say people, even though there's just the two of us in the room, the room is packed people and influences and all the other stuff, with all the stories that are in the room.

Speaker 1: 26:53

Absolutely, I want to give you a real uh, a real like example of what I see happen a lot with people. Um, this happened just this week with a particular client. They uh are negotiating a job opportunity. The um, because of the way you know wage and uh, wage an hour and the labor law is working right now, I got like you know, we can't ask you what you're currently making, so you have to give the number yourself. So client gives a number and let's just keep it easy. So the client gives a number and says, yes, I want a hundred thousand.

Speaker 1: 27:25

But then they hear back, channel, that that's too expensive. But they haven't heard it officially. They heard it through someone who's like, kind of in the know but not directly in the negotiation. So now they're sitting in the sweat of like. So what should I do? Should I? You know? And they said to me, should I go back? And I'm like we never negotiate with ourselves. We've made our, we're the anchor, we've made the number, we've told them what we want. So what would you suggest someone does in that situation?

Speaker 2: 27:52

So here's the thing I would not go back. As soon as you go back, then why did you ask for that number in the first place? Exactly, Then you're undermining yourself. The second thing I would believe is you know what, If I feel I'm worth the $100,000 and they don't, then maybe I don't want to work there anyway because it's not the ideal fit for me. I always hope that the other side, if they hear a number and I see this happening if they see a number that's too high, they say, wow, that's too high for us, you know okay, so then let me know more about what's comfortable for you.

Speaker 2: 28:29

And then I start to negotiate other things other than just the money, and that's what happens too many times. People say, oh, you do salary negotiations and I say, well, what do you mean by that? Because there's so many other ways of having a full benefit package than only the compensation. I'm not saying to make way less, but what if you get professional development funds so you can have tuition reimbursement or something else? Or what if you have flex time? Or what if you have more days off, or whatever it is? Think more broadly. Or maybe you want to go into the organization working on high profile cases or on teams, on projects, right. So lots of different ways of negotiating.

Speaker 2: 29:09

But if they come back and say, look, I really want you, but we can't afford that, it's not in our budget, let's talk about other ways we can compensate you. Now I know they want me and now I know I'm a fit. Now I know I'm me and now I know I'm a fit, Now I know a value to them. But if they don't say, sorry, you're too expensive, then I'm thinking, well, how committed are they to me anyway? But I would never go back. But what I do now is I sometimes say a range, depending on what it is depending on. But I'm doing talking about consulting things, not necessarily a full thing, but if it's full time I would say, well, I need a minimum of blah, you know, for number but also other things. I wouldn't only do number.

Speaker 1: 29:44

Right, right, yeah, and that's what I'm seeing too. You know they may not be able to budge on the range of salary, but, to your point, time off, professional development, vacation time I've even seen, you know, benefits such as, you know, child care. So babysitting dollars, pet sitting dollars, right? So the reason why they do that often is they don't have to necessarily guarantee the exact number year after year, which is what they have to do with a salary, whereas they can make that discretionary fund. One year it's $1,000 per quarter and another year it's more or less of that. So it gives the flexibility on both sides. Yeah, what are some of the um, the most outrageous things you've seen people ask for and get?

Speaker 2: 30:31

oh, I mean, years ago there was a woman who was a colleague of mine living in japan and she worked for banks from foreign companies and it wasn't bizarre, but she got, she was just able to negotiate the best packages I've ever seen. I love it. Not only did she have like home leave and all of these other things like every year, she got them to pay her rent. She got just so many things. So she just and I'm like wow, you know, because I'm not saying she wasn't worth all of that, but I thought she's not more exceptional than a lot of other wonderful women I knew who are working. How did she manage that? And I was always stumped by how she did that.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Yeah, and then there was some faculty who leave the university, were able to just negotiate packages where they can still stay in faculty housing they still are. I mean, they just get so many like sabbaticals and everything else. I'm always like, wow, that's pretty good, you don't have to just leave. You can always say, well, let me try it. And I think what's the worst that can happen? They say no, but sometimes people are afraid to even hear no, so they don't ask and they don't push.

Speaker 1: 31:37

You don, you don't ask, you don't get it's possible. Yeah, right, right, I love it. Okay, so last question for you is what are some of the things that people can do today to start flexing this muscle, meaning they may not have a negotiation that they're working on, but what can they do to prepare their story, their mindset, anything that they can put into practical action today?

Speaker 2: 32:01

anything that they can put into practical action today.

Speaker 1: 32:03

So I think that everybody does have negotiations, even though they're not formal oh, I love it.

Speaker 2: 32:05

Even in the family, you're constantly negotiating what time are we leaving? When are we going? Where are we going? Where are we eating? All of that Lots of negotiation, where are we going on our vacation? I think the number one thing is that you can never have too much self-awareness, because you're never in the same situation twice with the same people negotiating the same issues. So every opportunity to learn more about yourself, to learn more about your triggers, to really uncover what's a value of yours and what's really important to you, is a learning opportunity and it just makes you stronger. So, even if you don't think you're preparing yet for a particular negotiation, learning more about yourself and understanding that and doing a meditative practice of some sort of centering practice are really key to keeping it together, going forward when you do have that big negotiation.

Speaker 1: 32:55

Thank you, beth. This was really helpful and everyone. I'm going to put the link to all of Beth's information, including where you can get the book. It's on Amazon. Friends, new story, new power, a woman's guide to negotiation, but I having read the book, all genders will benefit from this book, so it's definitely something you want to have in your arsenal. Anybody, if you have questions, send them to hello at jillgriffincoachingcom. We will bring. We will get them to Beth.

Speaker 2: 33:26

We will bring her back on and have her answer any additional questions. So I appreciate you, thanks for listening and we will see you next time. Thank you.