The Career Refresh with Jill Griffin
The Career Refresh is your source for actionable insights to lead, thrive, and succeed in today’s workplace. Each episode tackles key topics like leadership, career strategy, confidence, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps—perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities. With years of experience helping thousands of professionals achieve their goals, elevate team performance, and embrace reinvention, this podcast is your career blueprint.
Jill Griffin, a former strategist and media executive, has been featured on Adam Grant's WorkLife Podcast. She's written articles for HuffPost, Fast Company, and Metro UK. And she's been quoted by leading media outlets like Advertising Age, The New York Times, Departures, and The Wall Street Journal. Follow her on LinkedIn and join the conversation. Read more at JillGriffinConsulting.com for more details.
The Career Refresh with Jill Griffin
Breaking Free from Toxic Work Cultures with Dr. William Diehl
Is your workplace more manipulative than supportive? Dr. William Diehl exposes corporate narcissism, from love bombing in interviews to toxic leadership. Learn to set boundaries and reclaim workplace balance.
In this episode:
- Spot the Red Flags: Recognize manipulative behaviors like love bombing and boundary violations.
- Lead with Clarity: How leaders can manage toxic employees while fostering a healthy culture.
- Protect Your Energy: Strategies for setting boundaries and detaching from toxic work dynamics.
Show Guest:
Dr. William Deihl, known as Doc Hypnosis, is Arizona’s top-rated hypnotherapist and wellness expert with over 20 years of experience. Specializing in clinical hypnotherapy, Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), he helps clients overcome challenges, build resilience, and achieve lasting balance. A sought-after speaker, Dr. Deihl has delivered over 180 worldwide presentations on corporate burnout recovery, time management, and goal-setting. As a media contributor, he’s been featured on ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, and WGN, offering transformative insights on mental health and personal growth that resonate with diverse audiences.
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Gallup CliftonStrengths Corporate Workshops to build a strengths-based culture
- Team Dynamics training to increase retention, communication, goal setting, and effective decision-making
- Keynote Speaking
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Hey there, welcome back to the Career Refresh. This is Jill Griffin, your host, and I am here today with a very exciting guest, dr William Diehl, and I'm going to have him introduce himself, because he has a fabulous background.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you very much, Jill. I am Dr William Diehl. I'm the founder of Doc Hypnosis Wellness Center here in Phoenix, arizona, but I'm also a PhD in psychology and I help individuals just get to their better selves.
Speaker 1:Love it. And when you and I were talking about you know, having this recording today, some of the things that you are talking about were really interesting to me. I know they're also going to be interesting to our listeners. And it is about that corporate narcissist, that dynamic that goes on the workplace where sometimes you feel like you're being gaslighted. Sometimes you might be the leader being gaslighted by someone who's reporting to you, or you could be the employee who's being gaslit and the narcissistic behavior on the leader. So I want you to kind of give us a little bit like how did you get into, with all the things that you do, how did you get into the corporate side of thinking about what goes on in this?
Speaker 2:crazy thing called the workplace. Well, I actually started off in the workplace Like most people. I left, I came out of college, I had my my degrees, but I got hired by a corporation. Um, I was working at the same corporation so they put me in full time there and I found myself all of a sudden going through the process and living in the corporate world and not doing a private practice anymore and negative things started happening to me. Because the corporation got sold and I was in upper management. Because the corporation got sold and I was in upper management and I noticed that it because I worked with people with narcissistic relationships. The corporation itself is almost like a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1:And that was so juicy Like I w. I want to go deeper on that because that is so juicy to make that connection, so please start it.
Speaker 2:How many people have gotten a job interview and they talk about oh, they do this love bombing on you. And that's a thing that narcissists do all the time. Oh, we just love you, you're the best. And then when you get into the position and you have to fight for your job, you have to fight to get what you want done. Or they say, oh, our corporate structure, we're like a family, well, and we just go the extra mile for our family. And when you get there, the extra mile is not what they're doing, it's the extra mile that they want you to give free work for, so they're gaslighting you.
Speaker 2:So there's so many little different things are happening that it has a very narcissistic feel. And all of a sudden you're not living up to expectations, so you do and work a little bit harder to get that little boost of appreciation. And then they're getting you into the addictive process of the narcissistic relationship. And that doesn't happen in all corporations, but I noticed a lot of corporations are set up and then you have managers that embrace that type of way. They're narcissistic, but maybe the corporation's not, and vice versa even. Uh, maybe stuff happens from the subordinates and they gaslight you or they do the same thing, so it's fascinating. So I get people coming in here from. I have a pilot coming in, he um, he's burnt out, but it's because of the narcissistic relationship of the airlines on how they use and how they lose seniority by getting promoted and they all these different things that happen when it okay.
Speaker 1:So let me go back to something that you said that I think is really interesting to our listeners is that when, when do you know when you're being gaslit, versus just asked to do a little extra work? And before you answer. In our careers there are times in which doing the extra effort is going to get us promoted, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. So how do you know when it goes from hey, listen, I need a little bit extra from you this week, or I need you and your team to double down and we got to get this project done and we got to get this back to the client. Right? When is the normal course? Right, it's work, not a hobby. When is the normal course of business versus when does it cross the line into hey? This is sort of a narcissistic relationship. This is a boundary breach. How does someone who's listening or watching this know which camp it's in?
Speaker 2:Well, first, hopefully, individuals taking some time to put some boundaries and have some understanding of what they want in their personal life and the work life. If they don't have that, it's hard to recognize, but probably the easiest thing to recognize it goes unrewarded. There was a manufacturing company that every week there was always a crisis. We need everybody on all hands on deck, we need all hands on deck. And every week there was no bonuses, there was nothing, maybe, no, there wasn't even pizza parties or anything else as a thank you. Guys, you did the extra mile or anything else, or the extra mile for those executives saying, hey, a review comes up and you get paid. You know, a merit review instead of getting, or a cost of living review instead of getting something of all the extra work you do. So there's signs. You just have to be open to them to see it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so appreciation and rewards is the biggest things that I'm hearing you say Did I get?
Speaker 2:that A hundred percent, yeah, those if you don't have boundaries already set up, if you're not getting the appreciation awards for your extra work, those are red flags. You need to take a serious look and say am I in a balanced relationship with work? And it should be a balanced relationship? There is an exchange of energy happening here, but there's an exchange of energy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're paying you, but there's an exchange of energy, yeah. So how do you see it manifesting differently between an executive level versus a frontline team Meaning if I'm a teammate, that doesn't mean I'm spared from narcissistic tendencies versus the executive level. Are there signals to see there?
Speaker 2:What do you mean from the coming from the team to the executive? Is that what you're asking?
Speaker 1:I think most of us who have worked and when we're saying corporate everyone, yeah, we do mean big corporate. We can also be talking about a 25 person company. Right, it happens everywhere it's everywhere. You know it's just an easier word to say corporate, just so everybody's clear. But I guess what I mean is most of us that have been working, let's say, for at least 10 years or more, that have had some experience, have been hopefully not in the sandwich at the same time, because that's enough to make you nuts, but we've all reported to the person who has the narcissistic tendencies and then at some point we have the person who's reporting to us who's the narcissist.
Speaker 1:So are there differences that you're seeing about how it manifests? Do you, do you notice the difference in how it manifests In?
Speaker 2:some ways, you know, I almost look at um, I call it, overt and covert, a narcissist. I know that's old terminology, but for me, that's how I learned it, that's how it's in my head. So I see, upper management is more of the over over. You know, grandiose over. The reverse is, when it's coming from a subordinate, it's more of the covert. Woe is me. Oh my God, I'm having this problem. Oh, I'm running late again because of this, this and this, and it's a give and take. Once again, it's all about you need to change the corporation structure to fit my needs because everything's so hard on me my dog, my cat, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you've heard of the Empathy Dilemma, which is a book by Maria Ross. It's an excellent book and she calls it empathy hijacking, which is the idea that we during COVID whether we're talking about students in school or employees we were like, oh my God, let's give them room and space and there's a lot going on and giving them so much free reign, because we were like, we just want to make sure we're taking care of people and then we're out of that crisis. There's still other mental health crisis, but we're out of this. It's time to come back and figure out how we're going to stay a profitable company and how we're going to make sure that you keep your job and I keep my job because we are a profitable company and what I'm hearing with a lot of leaders that I work with through leadership, strategy and alignment is a lot of leaders are saying that they're having employees who are like you know I got to think about this. This is a pushing on my boundary that you want me to stay late tonight Again, is it your child's school play?
Speaker 1:Well then, of course, no, no one wants you to stay late tonight or work an extra hour or two, but I think there's like there's this balance that's happening where the rigidity that wasn't there and we don't want it to go back to that level of rigidity by any means. It wasn't really working and people are getting sick and out. But what is that delicate balance? And that's what I'm. I would love your expertise on that delicate balance. Because it's the company is there to provide a service and make a profit. The employee is there to fulfill that service, also make a profit, hopefully have some fun, intellectually stimulate their brain, have all of that, so that dance. Just how are you seeing that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's almost a cultural shift in the corporation, or for the employees to understand yeah, you need to be flexible, but the employer needs to be flexible. I think, as you said, they became very rigid oh, you need to do this, you need to do that. If you're staying late, okay, great. But if you're staying late every night and there's no award system, no appreciation, nothing is showing that you, then there's a sign saying, okay, they are crossing a boundary.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, but the difference is hey, you know this week, they, you know I need you to stay late tonight, Great. And by the way, when you come in an hour late tomorrow, you know, or let's do that. I think there's boundaries on both sides and both sides need to understand what those boundaries are and then from there, what those boundaries are, and then from there it's basically a relationship from there, be able to be flexible, because guess what? Boundaries are not always there to to stop a person. It's just saying, hey, if you go past this too much, you need to slow down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, what I often instruct with words. So for anyone who's watching or listening, the word could be something like okay, Dr Deal, I can absolutely put in the extra hour tonight, but can I get your commitment that I'm going to have breakfast at home with my children in the morning and I'm going to come in a little bit late? So, finding a way to negotiate but being, you know, being within the professionalism that you're in, you're like, okay, do for you, do for me, Like I'm happy to do this here, but then I need, they need a break here. And that's basically what I think I hear you saying, and just giving people scripting.
Speaker 1:So what they can say. So what do you think is some of the biggest mistakes that leaders make when they're handling sort of a toxic situation or a narcissistic situation? Someone's got to do it.
Speaker 2:You know, a lot of times leaders sometimes don't recognize it early enough. You know the person's taking advantage, taking advantage, taking advantage, and then they get themselves into a pattern and they don't even recognize it. There's some people that give up Bob's always late, judy's always has a problem, and then it causes other problems in the family group or in the team where those individuals or the not those individuals the other individuals see, oh, why is bob and um them having they? They they're allowed to be late and I got reprimanded or talked to, so it's um recognizing it soon or making sure they're keeping their eyes open. Hence, if they have, you know, corporate guidelines or how they do it, it's there for a reason to help you treat everybody equally.
Speaker 2:But also have flexibility. Of course there's going to be an accident on the freeway once in a while, of course a child's going to be sick. Having that flexibility but when it becomes a chronic problem or a chronic woe is me, um where, where most of the um covert narcissism, manipulation occurs. They just need to be open and recognize that manipulation and cut in barney fife back in Andy Taylor time, nip it in the bud.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, really, really helpful. The other question I wanted to ask you is, if you're a leader, what's the best way of giving someone a chance to improve their behavior in this area versus recognizing when it's time to let them go or to go to an official performance improvement plan, and then you go.
Speaker 2:Like anything, communication is king. So express your boundaries, tell them what you expect, what you need. Then from there, if it doesn't, you follow the natural pattern of employment improvements and then going out. You have to make sure your boundaries are expressed. A lot of times people don't express what they need until the employment performance plan is put into place, but they need to do it beforehand. A lot of times they need to be called on it. Even a narcissist, sometimes called on it, will actually change their ways. And then you just need to pay attention. If you notice that they're chronic like this, you, you just need to pay a little bit of attention and make sure they're not manipulating you a different way.
Speaker 1:But communication is always key, okay, so if we think about again it doesn't matter whether you're the leader or you're the employee, someone who is in a narcissistic situation what are some of the in the moment tools that they can handle right? What I hear a lot when I work with people is sometimes there's like a physical trigger or physical reaction, like it's happening again. I have often hear from clients where the use of communication again, it doesn't matter what level they're at, but the use of communication first it's the Slack or the Teams, then it's email, then it's texting me and it starts revving up. Revving up where the tone and sentiment in what's being written is like whoa, hey, now, so what? And then that can be really triggering, that someone speaking to you in such a way. That's highly inappropriate and sometimes you're caught in the freeze and you don't even know what to say. If you were hanging out with your friends watching like we're coming up to the Super Bowl.
Speaker 1:Right, You're hanging out with your friends watching the Super Bowl and someone says something to you that's inappropriate, you're probably in a different position to be like yo knock it off right Because there's not the power over you of money, influence, impact, depending on the leadership structure. So what, again, are some of the things that people could appropriately do in the moment when it's happening? To like get themselves back and then decide how to respond.
Speaker 2:Well, first thing is to start recognizing how they're doing it and what's setting you off Give us an example.
Speaker 2:Well, if it's, I need you to do this to really show your dedication to the company or a team player. You need to do this. Well, if that's something that you're feeling you're forced into, recognize that they're using team or pressure to make you do something more. Recognizing their tactics is important, Then, practicing some detachment techniques meaning not to take their immediate action on what they say where you can step away, excuse yourself to go to the restroom or other things, taking a moment to take a breath.
Speaker 2:There's techniques of just breathing and taking a deep breath, in letting out slower than you brought it in to help you come in more centered in your body, Making sure you can try to avoid arguments at that moment and try to be more communication. So you need to really educate yourself on what's happening, what's going on with how they're trying to manipulate you, and then try to come with detachment techniques where you can establish boundaries by saying, hey, I need to spend time with my kids. I need your commitment where I can start having a life and not time with my kids. I need to have, you know, I need your commitment where I can have and start having a life and not giving up my life.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay. So just to take a second here and recap what I'm hearing is the difference between hey, this is work and we need your help, and narcissistic behavior within a workplace is are you getting rewarded and acknowledged for doing the work? Workplace is are you getting rewarded and acknowledged for doing the work or is it a continuous cycle of expectation? Next, I'm hearing that leaders at all levels should be thinking about the communication and that's how we sort of keep from dragging down the morale of everyone and when we decide whether someone should go into a performance plan or do they need to actually be ushered out. And then, lastly, I've heard you say a few times, is set boundaries and also have detachment techniques. Are there any other tools that you would give our listeners and watchers to sort of reclaim that mental wellness that they can walk away from this conversation and watching this or listening to this today and being like, oh, you know what I'm going to do that the next time I'm in that situation.
Speaker 2:You know a couple of things. One before you get into that situation again, take some time and start building your own self-esteem back up. You know you're pulled down. You're pulled down and realize that, yeah, you're in a position. They might have financial, you know, like a thumb on you that way. But there's other things that you can do to say, ok, I need to still be respected as an employee or part of the team. So first, build up your self-esteem. Take some time for yourself and learn detachment techniques. Breathing is one. If you're triggered a lot, there is actually a simple technique of covering your left eye and looking upwards. That can help take yourself out of anxiety.
Speaker 1:Why does that work? Tell us, why that works.
Speaker 2:You know it's going into the neurology of the brain, but it actually helps detach you from the mechanism that causes anxiety and basically you're changing your physical, normal pattern. That you do because what do most people do? They got to get a tense position and all of a sudden, if you walk in the restroom and you do this and look up and take a breath, you can actually start relaxing. You learning relaxation techniques, breathing techniques, listening to certain music, get yourself back to center and then approach them calm, cool, collective. You do not want to come across aggressive. It's that old saying whoever loses their temper first loses the game. So you come across calm, cool, collective and put together. That's the best way to approach and get yourself out of it, because if you're coming across in a hurt situation or an angry situation, they're not going to hear you, they're going to take offense to it.
Speaker 1:Got it. Got it Okay, really good. So tell us how people can find you, how they can work with you. Obviously, I'll put all your information in the show notes, but let us know how we can find and work with you.
Speaker 2:Six practitioners here, all hypnotists, but we specialize in different areas. We have I team up with a clinical sound therapist. That's a hypnotist that helps with anxiety and stuff. So DocHypnosis is DocHypnosiscom. D-o-c-hypnosiscom is a great way to find and you can start seeing my specialist up there as well. As you can just give a phone call. I have a straight line to a business line that I respond to every one of my phone calls and or I have one of my team give you a call.
Speaker 1:Can this work be done virtually, or is it only in your office?
Speaker 2:No, the person just before you I was talking to was in England, so I do it all over the world wherever it's needed, wonderful.
Speaker 1:And how do you find that the hypnosis and the NLP, which is neurolinguistic programming for anyone, how do you find that those practices help change some of the person who is in the experience of this narcissistic behavior? How do you find that it helps them change their reality and their situation?
Speaker 2:Well, I use several different things like PCW, nlp and hypnotherapy, and I like about the combination of those three is it actually helps with speed and getting through the problem quickly, where if you're going to a cognitive therapist you might have to see them maybe 30 times. Well, okay, that's 30 weeks, that's a half a year. Most people don't want to be in the crap that they're in for the next 30 weeks or half a year. They want to take care of it. So by combining those techniques we can get stuff down within four, maybe six sessions. So we're giving them tools right away, we're giving them change in their mind right away, we're interrupting patterns that they're creating the anxiety with and getting them on a better path for self-esteem so they can approach the problem in a more centered approach.
Speaker 1:Fascinating. It's fascinating, really, really good. Again, everyone. I'm going to put his information in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you and sharing this level. I mean, I don't know that people are aware that this is another tool that they can learn in order to manage burnout, workplace challenges and really just up-level themselves and their wellness first, before they can, you know, or perform in their careers in a better way. So I appreciate that. As always, everyone who's listening or watching this, you can email me at hello at jillgriffincoachingcom. I want to hear from you, I want to know what you think and if you have questions, we will bring Dr Diehl back and we will get him back on and answer more questions. So I would love to have you. Until next time, everyone, please embrace possibility, be intentional and be kind. We'll see you soon.