Empathy in the Workplace with Author and Empathy Advocate Maria Ross

Empathy advocate and author of The Empathy Dilemma, Maria Ross discusses how empathy fosters transparency in leadership. Learn practical strategies to build trust, improve communication, and inspire teams by leading with empathy. Explore how transparent leadership creates stronger connections, boosts morale, and drives organizational success.

In this episode: 

• How the definition of empathy has changed over time
• What empathy means in today's workplace
• What to do when empathy has been weaponized
• The 5 pillars of empathetic leadership

Show Guest:
Maria Ross is a speaker, author, strategist, and empathy advocate. She has spoken in front of TED stages and at top conferences and companies, and she’s been featured in NPR, Entrepreneur, and Forbes. Her newly-released book, The Empathy Dilemma, is described as “refreshing” by Dan Pink and a powerful “balance of empathy and accountability” by Dorie Clark. Maria lives in Northern California where you may find her sipping red wine, doing CrossFit, or indulging in a British crime drama.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Maria Ross & Her Book
• 2:05 Defining True Empathy in Leadership
• 9:13 Balancing Empathy with Accountability
• 16:12 Building Trust in Workplace Relationships
• 20:48 Return to Office Debates & Hybrid Solutions
• 30:50 Empathy Hijacking: When Sharing Goes Wrong
• 36:35 The Five Pillars of Effective Leadership
• 45:30 Advice for Working with Unempathetic Leaders

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey there, I'm Jill Griffin. I'm a career strategist and executive coach and I am here today with Maria Ross, who I am. Listen, I read a lot of books. I read a book or more a week, and this book I was not only highlighting and underlining and like talking about, but her book the Empty Dilemma, which we are going to talk about today, is phenomenal and this is a real treat everyone. So, whether you're watching or listening, I would like to introduce you to Maria. Hello, hello, real treat everyone.

Speaker 2: 0:24

So, whether you're watching or listening, I would like to introduce you to Maria. Hello, hello, thank you so much for having me. It warms my heart when I hear people saying they've highlighted and posted, noted and all the things on my book.

Speaker 1: 0:33

And yelled out loud yes, preach, yeah. So Maria, why don't you let our listeners and viewers know a little bit more about yourself and give them a brief overview?

Speaker 2: 0:44

Sure, I am Maria Ross. I am an empathy advocate. I like to say, I'm a speaker, I'm an author, I'm a podcast host. My podcast is called the Empathy Edge, and I come from the world of brand strategy and marketing, and so my whole career has really been about how to help people connect and engage with their audience. Now, what I'm all about is helping people understand the power and the strength of empathy as a lever for achieving radical success, whether it's for your own leadership, to build a thriving culture or to build an engaging brand, and that's what I'm all about. I give keynotes, I give leadership trainings, I'm a TEDx speaker and, like I said, I got my podcast, which I love.

Speaker 1: 1:30

I love talking to other experts. Awesome, Okay, so I'm the nerd. Like I said, highlighted page numbered, all of that and I want to jump right in.

Speaker 1: 1:42

So on page two, which is where it started, I was like you talk about a bit around empathy and you say a lack of empathy did not seem to be the issue. To me, it seemed that they had been conflating empathy with a need for more trust. Take us through, tell us what that is in context that people are definitely going to want to highlight and bookmark this part of it.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Yeah, I mean a lot of my work is about helping people understand what empathy is and what it isn't, because there's a lot of misunderstanding that either burns us out because we don't understand what empathy means, or it causes us to shy away from empathy in the workplace. So empathy through the work that I do is about being able to see, understand and, where appropriate, feel another person's perspective. It doesn't mean you have to be crying on the floor with your employees, but then you use that information. It's sort of a method of information gathering of someone's context and where they're coming from, so then you can use that information to act with compassion, and compassion is really empathy in action. What is my next right step to take with compassion and compassion is really empathy in action. What is my next right step to take with this person?

Speaker 2: 2:48

It doesn't necessarily mean to get into some of the myths. It doesn't mean I'm just being nice because you can be nice, but it doesn't mean you see my point of view. It doesn't mean I cave into unreasonable demands. Right, that's people pleasing, that's submission. That's not empathy, that's not perspective taking to find a way forward. And it also doesn't mean agreeing with someone. You can have an empathetic conversation with someone to understand their point of view and why they think the way they do, and you can walk away saying I really don't, I still don't agree, but I see how you got there and so maybe we can find common ground together. So really, that's about helping people understand that.

Speaker 2: 3:26

It is like I said with some of my very analytical left brain leaders who are not too into the emotional side of it helping them understand. Hey, think of it as information gathering, think of it as a way to embrace curiosity, find out what's going on for someone else, because you may find a good idea. You may find a good idea, you may find an interesting rationale for why they feel the way they do. You might be able to address a problem, a root cause that you didn't see and that really helps them embrace empathy. As you know, there's cognitive empathy and there's emotional empathy. Cognitive is using your head to imagine what something is like for someone. Emotional is when you actually can share the emotions. You're sad, I start tearing up, you're really anxious and upset, my palms start getting sweaty, whatever it is, but both of those things you can access empathy through either door to lead to an act of compassion.

Speaker 1: 4:21

So you've said so many things in there, but the one thing that's sticking in my mind first is the part around empathy and compassion, and it's making me think that, you know, empathy without leadership gives you connection but no solutions, exactly. And then leadership without empathy is sort of that toxic old power over versus power with.

Speaker 2: 4:42

Yes.

Speaker 1: 4:43

And that it's that compassion and the connection that we need to. I'm guessing we can teach. Like some people are born with it, other people we can teach and teach them how to. It's a very coachy term, but we would say hold space and let the individual express themselves without stepping on them or telling them Right.

Speaker 2: 5:01

Or trying to solve their problems. Yeah, and actually, you know, actually science shows we are actually born with empathy.

Speaker 2: 5:07

So I kind of call BS on some leaders of not embracing their empathy, because we're born with it, it's innate to us, it's barring certain pathological conditions, that's outlying right. For the most part, humans are born with it. There's studies that have been done on babies and on children and we're born with it. But for some of us, the muscle atrophies. So whether we grow up in or we're in a work environment that doesn't celebrate it, reward it, model it, acknowledge it. That muscle, just like any other muscle, when we don't go to the gym or don't work out with weights, it atrophies.

Speaker 2: 5:41

So the great news is to your point, it can be strengthened, but it has to be more intentional if your muscle has gotten weak, and that just requires you to really be thinking about those interactions. Maybe it's not your standard operating procedure right now to be a good listener or to be curious or to be able to put ego aside, but all of those things can be learned if you decide that's the kind of leader you want to be. And given what the data and the research show about how being an empathetic leader improves performance, retention, loyalty, innovation, customer revenue, it's in your best interest to try to build that empathy muscle as a leader, even if you're like well, I'm just not really touchy-feely. You don't have to be touchy feely to be empathetic and see someone else's point of view.

Speaker 1: 6:27

Right, Right. And you know, one of the themes that to me was really obvious throughout the book was the balance of empathy and accountability right.

Speaker 1: 6:37

That empathy and I think we get confused because we have our own opinions and then there's a lot in our face around media about how to walk that line, Like, yeah, and as a leader? Today we're hearing you know, there's a lot of discussion around return to office, whether I should work from home, the hybrid, what's the right approach? I'd love for you to explain to people a little bit around how a leader can walk that line between empathy and accountability.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Yeah, I'm definitely pro both and leadership. Not either or right so it's. We don't have to choose between being empathetic or high-performing, being empathetic or holding people accountable, and especially, being empathetic or being, you know, maintaining our own strong boundaries, and I think that's the false narrative we give ourselves. And and it's really about both. And how can I be empathetic and be there for my employees and support them to deliver the work at the level I need them to deliver? Like that's the part people leave out right, and so you're not when you're trying to approach, maybe an underperformer, let's say, or someone who has an issue or has an interpersonal conflict with someone else that they're working with. The goal that we need to keep in mind as leaders is we want to up-level their performance. So what needs to be done to up-level their performance? We can guess, we can make assumptions, we can say, well, this is what would motivate me, but none of that is empathetic.

Speaker 2: 8:04

What's empathetic is tell me what's going on for you, tell me what your vision is, tell me what motivates you, what are you passionate about, and leveraging that to meet your goal as a leader, which is to get the best level of performance, get the best level of engagement and, quite frankly, if you want your bonus at the end of the year, you want your employees to be operating at their optimum level, and the way to get them at their optimum level is through empathy. So they're not mutually exclusive things of. You know, if I'm empathetic, that means my performance will slip. That's what I hear all the time, but that's because of what you think empathy is and not engaging it in a way where you're understanding that empathy is about helping you both reach a goal not lowering your standard down to the other person, but helping the other person raise their standard up so that the team can perform.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Okay. So you and I joked before this conversation that we were going to be probably threading the needle back and forth from the employer to the employee. Yes, so from the employee side of what you just said, what I know when I work with my private clients or when I work within organizations is the lack of trust and transparency.

Speaker 1: 9:20

Yes, I've also been in situations where there is no way I am telling that person any of my needs because it's going to come back in six months in a different way, served in a dish that I don't want to eat. Say to someone who's like, but I don't know if I trust my leader enough to share with them. You know, my child's sick, I have an aging parent, my own health issues or I'm just feeling burnt out. Without it being against me. What would you say to someone?

Speaker 2: 9:51

Well, what I would say is, first of all, it depends again, it depends on your situation. And are you able to be in a situation where, if you had to, you could leave that job for a different job? And if there's some sort of safety around, I have agency to make my own decisions about if this leader or this organization aligns with my values or not. Then my first thing would be to say have a conversation and say look this behavior or whatever it is, I have this situation going on at home and bring it back to the business, especially if there is a lack of trust and there's not really a close relationship. Bring it back to business performance and what's the shared goal. I know that we need to deliver X. Here's what's getting in the way of me delivering X. This is what's going on for me at home.

Speaker 2: 10:44

You don't have to get weepy, you don't have to get emotional. You can just make a statement and say and I've been holding out on telling you that to get what I need to actually complete the project or get to the goal, meet the KPI, because I didn't feel like I could tell you that Now one of two things could happen. One is that's actually eye-opening for the leader of. I didn't realize that you couldn't trust me with that kind of information. Of course you could trust me, like let's figure out together what we can do again bringing it back to meet the common goal, right, I don't have to completely off track and then start providing delivered meals to your family or whatever. I don't have to get into the personal if we don't want to go there.

Speaker 2: 11:31

But if we can bring it back to the goal, and that's where we go wrong is we end up holding it in, holding it in, holding it in until we do have an emotional outburst at our leader, and now they're just surprised, right? So that's one way it can go. At our leader, and now they're just surprised, right. So that's one way it can go. The other way it could go, which I would probably place money on a bet, that this would be a minuscule percentage of bosses, and even I will say this even one of my most psychologically abusive bosses. I know for a fact that when someone was in need of something from a personal perspective, she was the first person to step up. So, even though her behavior didn't engender trust and she wreaked havoc on our organization, there was like she had humanity in her, and so when someone did and I would say because she could be the hero in some way, but and she could be the hero.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Yeah, that's another conversation.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Different conversation, but either way, you're saying even in there, but yeah, and I'm saying it would be a minuscule percentage of people that would say I don't care, right, get it done, because that doesn't actually meet their goal. So that's actually not good leadership, right? Right, so you know, take the chance of having the conversation, but if you have the conversation, keep it focused on shared goals and keep it focused on how it's impacting the work and your desire and your willingness to find a way to find a strategy to adapt so that you can help complete the goal. That's a completely different conversation than just falling apart in your boss's office who you don't trust, right?

Speaker 1: 13:04

It's also making me think from the other thing you said about like having a conversation. You know, I often suggest to people that you took a job because the data points that we knew right what you were going to be doing, who you're going to be doing it for potentially shared values, the salary you were getting the data points worked that might shift right.

Speaker 1: 13:30

Completely For any of us that were working with an organization pre-COVID. We shifted in those early months of COVID and many of us are seeing a shift to what is the next thing they're becoming. So I think what's important is, just as your organization is doing their own strategic planning, you need to be doing that too and you need to look. You know what for a year or two, this was the right place for me, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the place. It means that your values have shifted and you need to take care of yourself. Well, if you do have, you know, important things going on with the members of your family or people that you live with, that, maybe it's also time to check in of what is. What does the job look like, or what does work look like for me now? Yeah, it doesn't always have to be that way either. I love the concept of a portfolio career where maybe for this time, I need to take something that's a little bit different and I have the agency to do that.

Speaker 2: 14:21

I was just going to say.

Speaker 1: 14:21

Come back to another opportunity, another time.

Speaker 2: 14:25

Yeah, it's about remembering we have agency, and this is why clarity is one of the five pillars in the new book, because if you can be crystal clear as a leader and even as an organization, about what our mission is, what our values are, what they look like in practice and what we believe, how we treat each other, then now I can make a better decision as an employee to say, great, is this what I want to sign up for or stay signed up for? The company can run itself however it wants to run itself. They actually have that right. And if they're making business decisions about return to office, about job hours, whatever they're doing, whether that's well-informed or not. That's sort of like what you and I are working with leaders on. But if you're talking to an employee, they've clearly stated what's happening. You can give feedback, you can give it constructively, you can give it in a way. That's here's why this is again going to impact the work. If they don't budge, they don't have to. So now it's on you to have some agency.

Speaker 2: 15:28

If you are not necessarily trying to change them now you have to figure out is this a place where I still want to be, and that doesn't have to be a contentious conversation. This is like my whole point, where it's like if you're a leader and someone's coming to you demanding I don't want to come back into the office four days a week, the empathetic response as a leader is to say I hear you and I understand. I understand that this might be difficult for you in this season, as you're talking about of your career, your life, I get it and it might not be the place for you anymore. You're right, it might not align with your values and your needs right now. So what can I do to support you to move on? What can I do to support you to find a different role? How can I? Can I provide references? Can I provide some contacts for you? It doesn't have to be an argument. It doesn't have to be like ultimatum slamming doors, like it can be an empathetic conversation.

Speaker 1: 16:19

And what I was reading and the part again it gets right in there on page three going about empathy being weaponized, which I want to dig into a bit. But what I was reading there and you know, if you talk to people who are in a return to office situation that are unhappy about it, is they really think that they are going to win. So the thing and and look, I want you to win, but I also respect that an organization has been able to say our values, our productivity, our creativity, our innovation, it's slipped, it's fallen. We need to have you all come back in, if that's, you know what their needs are. But in that conversation, if I go to you and say this doesn't work for me, I think what I'm hearing is the shock from the employee. When an empathetic leader says I'm so sorry to hear that. How can I help you exit with grace and excellence, that they're expecting to win, yeah, to your point, as if it's an argument and look, sometimes you will and, like I'm rooting for.

Speaker 1: 17:21

But the company also gets to make a decision to their how they want to run, and I think that's a bit of the challenge that I'm thinking is that there's a lot of people. There's a large organization that you and I both know that has their employees writing a petition right now trying to overturn the return to office for four days a week, and I don't know how many thousands of people are on it, but it's a small percentage based on the numbers of employees that they have idea that in this market at this time, with our current level of workplace dynamics, that I think a lot of these people think that their seat isn't going to be quickly filled. We know that there are people who are ready and willing and able to do those jobs and step in roles and that would be easy and unfortunate. But I mean, I'm sure from your side of the table you're seeing a lot of that.

Speaker 2: 18:19

I am, and you know. This is where now I'm going to. I'm going to talk to the leaders and the companies here of that. You know. We need to remember that innovation doesn't happen inside four walls, like we proved it. We proved it during the pandemic, when we had to that your company could still operate, it could still produce, and there's so many benefits to opening up the talent pool, being able to retain employees that otherwise wouldn't have been able to keep working. Moms who have to deal with their kids, or people dealing with elder care or whatever, having a disability all of those things are good, and so I would.

Speaker 2: 18:56

You know, the one side of my mouth is like are you sure you really want to do this? Like, why are you doing it? If you're doing it because your leaders are scared and they don't know how to lead people unless they can see them, then that's a problem. That's on you. You guys need to work on that. If you're doing this because there's legal requirements, because there's, you know, like you said, productivity has been slipping, all of these things then yeah, that could be a good decision.

Speaker 2: 19:22

So I would say make sure you're making this decision from the right place and not just because, oh, you had your fun being treated like humans during the pandemic. Now it's time to get back to work, because I'm scared as a leader that if I can't see you, you're not doing the work and I don't know how to lead in a hybrid and remote environment and I don't want to learn. That's not an excuse to bring everybody back to work. So that's the argument I have behind closed doors with leaders, right. But then when I'm talking to the employees, it's also they're telling you how they're going to move forward. They're telling you what they need and how they want to operate their company and their culture.

Speaker 2: 19:58

Now you have a decision to make and somehow if those two things can meet in the middle but with your work too, it depends on the company, it depends on the industry, it depends on the role, and this is why I had a great conversation on my podcast with the head of HR at Box, the file sharing company, and what I loved about their approach is they said no one knows the answer. There's no one right answer for every company she's like. So we're experimenting, we're trying different models, we're trying different things. We're trying a few days back in the office, a few days out. We're doing a lot of listening, we're getting a lot of feedback, we're making tweaks. That's the mindset we need to have, like a design thinking mindset, when it comes to return to office, and we need to look at what is driving the decision, because if it's because the leaders just don't want to deal, that's not an excuse.

Speaker 2: 20:51

Or because I have a building with rent to pay and I need or I have a building with rent to pay, like, my husband joined a company in the pandemic where a lot of their workforce was remote anyway, but they were like, yeah, we're letting the lease lapse. This is ridiculous. We clearly can produce and innovate. Now you can be strategic about when you bring people together in person. Right, we are wired to be in person and touch and see and read body language and all of that. So be strategic. Do you need to be in person and touch and see and, like you know, read body language and all of that? So be strategic. Do you need to be in the same office every day for status calls every week? You don't, right. Right, you need to be together when you're doing a, you know, a yearly strategic planning session or a quarterly review. Yes, of course. So be be intentional and strategic about when you get people together, if that's your concern.

Speaker 1: 21:35

Yes, and I think also the thing that I've seen most recently and I don't know that they would want to be named, so I'm not going to name the company they are in the financial space and what they have done really, really well is you are in the office for one week a quarter and what they do is it's conjoining teams, so it might be that the engineering team and the product team are aligned, and from Monday through Friday, for that quarter you were in the office. Oh, I like that. I think there's some balance of depending on proximity, whether or not you're commuting, whether or not you're getting a stipend for the hotel room, but you were in the office. So you know, then the next week it might be finance and marketing. So you know, then the next week it might be finance and marketing the next week, so that you, it is one week of full working, full connection.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Your nights are not your nights, your nights are team dinners and then we will see you in three months. Yeah, so that it is giving the balance of because, even coming in that one day a week we've also heard so many people talk about I come in but then I sit on a Zoom call.

Speaker 2: 22:35

But the office is empty. Exactly also heard so many people talk about I come in but then I sit on a Zoom call.

Speaker 1: 22:40

The office is empty, exactly, exactly. Which would be maddening if I just made a two-hour commute in, so I think that model of what I'm hearing, and they're in their third year of that and that seems working well and again you get the immersive with your Zoom, and then we'll see in 13 more weeks.

Speaker 2: 22:59

And I have a question for you, like if we can have a little little back and forth on this. One of the things I have heard about the negative is which is kind of shocking is that and kind of shocking and kind of not is that there are many Gen Z, younger millennials especially those who don't have families yet they don't have families of their own who are wanting to be back in the office because it's their social system, and I can attest I made all my best friends at work. When I was in my 20s. I met my husband at work. There's something to be said, and so they feel like they're not getting the FaceTime and the serendipity and the social interaction that you get in an office. I'm wondering, you know and I haven't looked into enough reports on this, but I hear these little anecdotes here and there what are you seeing around that?

Speaker 1: 23:50

Yeah, it's definitely nuanced. So for our listeners, this is not fact, this is not data, this is not statistics. This is what we're seeing in our own bubbles.

Speaker 2: 24:00

Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah, I don't have a date, I don't have a report to point out to you.

Speaker 1: 24:05

Yeah, but I think it also comes back to the age of the children in the household or the age of the aging parent and proximity to where that aging parent is to the worker Right. So that's where, if I was to summarize, so it is exactly true that that the that based on Gen X.

Speaker 2: 24:26

Like the early in their career people, the people who it's like their first job yeah, First jobs.

Speaker 1: 24:31

They there's some of them because of their college experience with COVID. They don't even know what the potential is that they're missing. So I'm sorry and I hope that you get that some point but if it wasn't for, like you said, some of your best friends and even today, some of my closest friends, if it wasn't for those people, the network that I created, my COVID experience would have been a lot more mentally damaging to me, a lot harder. I had 20 years of working and meeting people and, like every day, called two or three people just to connect right. So that's there. And there is something about making a relationship that's not just through social media right, making a relationship because you sat in the workstation or the cube farm or a period table and working together and being in proximity.

Speaker 1: 25:19

So I'm seeing that the people whose obligations are less want to come in. And especially, we know that two out of three relationships start. Romantic relationships start because of the office, and I don't mean that in an inappropriate way, meaning I introduced you to one of my friends who works someplace else, but you met that person because we all went out for happy hour together or we went on a weekend Right.

Speaker 1: 25:38

So that part and where I look at it is from a loneliness. If we know that they do, that loneliness is to a level that is worse than smoking. And if we're young people, and even if they are living with their parents because of economic or choice.

Speaker 1: 25:53

If they're still alone all day, working all day in front of a screen and not having any output, you can see where, like a workplace, could really do their head and heart to well. So I'm seeing it's that younger. And then I'm seeing on the other side again, it depends on the age of the children. But if you're on the older side, where your children are more, they have more agency and they're more functioning on their own and you're like, wait, so my life is sitting at a desk and then sitting at the kitchen table and then going to bed and starting it again. You're like, no, I would love to. You know, I want to go somewhere. Yeah, let's, let's meet in person. Let's, let's meet.

Speaker 1: 26:27

So I, I think and again, don't know statistically I think those of us that have had it see the benefits of it. Those of us that haven't had it don't understand what the benefit could be. It's not a right or wrong thing, but you see that, you know it's that middle tier that have children, I'm going to say, that are elementary school and younger, that are like you have no idea the pressure on me to be able to make this work, and we know that that's absolutely true. We also know from you know I identify with a disability we also know from a disability standpoint that when you are able to hire the person who is disabled, you raise the whole family, because otherwise the family has to use their own resources to help the person who can't get a job. And if you have to, if there is a physical disability and therefore you have to go into an office that can also be challenging, no-transcript and the money and then an opportunity to almost like on-ramp and off-ramp into areas Again it's sort of a dream.

Speaker 1: 27:51

I don't know that it would happen, but to me that feels like it would fulfill the needs, and you understand that there are trade-offs if you're not ever coming into an office when the company is requiring you to be in an office For sure.

Speaker 2: 28:01

I mean. I think this is like all of this is solvable with empathetic leadership, because the whole point is have conversations, get curious, ask for your people what's working for them and what's not right. And you can do that team by team. You can do that if you're a small enough company. But the point is, I think what a lot of leaders are trying to do is who's figured it out? I'm going to do what they're going to do and no one's figured it out, because it's different depending on your company, depending on your industry, depending on what city you're in, whether you're in the suburbs or in the city proper, whether you have public transportation available or not.

Speaker 2: 28:41

There's so many factors. So there's no easy pill to swallow. It's going to have to be conversations, listening sessions, what do my best people need? What do they want? How can we structure this and what can we test and tweak as we go along. And I know that sounds like a lot of effort when you're like, okay, well, when are we going to actually get our work done? But this is what I say to every leader and, believe me, I've led teams like I get it. But this is why you're a leader and you're not a doer. The whole point is that you're leading people, yes, not just managing tasks. So it you know, I hate to say it, but it's it.

Speaker 1: 29:20

That is the work, right now, yeah, and I think it's also important for companies and whoever is responsible for training, upskilling and learning and development in different organizations A hundred percent. But it's also important that just because you are a subject matter expert does not mean that you are the right leader 100%, and we need to either upskill you, train you to understand leadership and I see this happening a lot in sales where somebody in sales is a top financial performer, they get tapped to lead the team. Yeah, suddenly, not only do they not know how to lead the team, but they're competing against their team because they're still holding a number.

Speaker 2: 29:58

Exactly Because the skills they needed to be a successful salesperson are very much individualistic, not collaborative. And then now, all of a sudden, you get promoted to a position where you need to foster collaboration, camaraderie, support.

Speaker 1: 30:14

But you got a number, they didn't take away your number, so you're exactly sharp elbow with the person that's reporting to you and then they call me and we have conversations and executive speaking, all of that, but so okay. So two things I want to touch on.

Speaker 1: 30:31

One is I do because it was juicy I want you to talk about the empathy hijacking concept, because this is the one that I really was yelling out and then just to let our listeners know is I want you to touch on the five pillars and then I want to get on like two of them. Okay, great, great, yeah. Tell everybody about this empathy hijacking.

Speaker 2: 30:51

So empathy hijacking is something I experienced very starkly when and we were talking about this earlier I almost died from a brain aneurysm in 2008. And I luckily survived. I'm so fortunate I had such a miraculous recovery and I'm high functioning now. I deal with my own cognitive deficits, but I find strategies around them.

Speaker 1: 31:15

That's why we get along so well. That's why we get along.

Speaker 2: 31:17

We're both brain people yes, exactly, brain people, but anyway, the desire for people to connect. They think it's empathetic when they say, oh, I know exactly how you feel, because one time this thing happened to me and here's what I did and here's how it impacted me, yada, yada, yada. We're doing that with the best of intentions, you know, like it was happening to me of like I know how you feel. I can't remember anything either and I have to write everything down and great, I wasn't like that, like two months ago, like it's different yeah exactly what it does is number one.

Speaker 2: 31:53

It, instead of being empathetic and letting the person talk or vent or feel what they feel, it kind of silences the feelings, right. The other form of this well, at least right the fires in LA. Well, at least your family's all safe. I still have trauma. My house just burned down. I'm still having trauma, right Like.

Speaker 1: 32:16

I don't need.

Speaker 2: 32:17

Pollyanna right now, Right. But empathy hijacking is again done with all good intentions to make people feel like they're not alone. But what it does is it de-centers the narrative from the person that needs the empathy now to you. And now you're also in advice giving mode and they might not be ready for advice right now.

Speaker 1: 32:35

The better thing is to ask for consent. Excuse me a second the point that you said around the houses burning in LA, I think also for listeners that are in the workplace when your colleague has gone through a loss, and whether it's a pregnancy, a parent, a family member, a pet, it's the same thing where you. I see this happening a lot, where instantly it's like, oh well, when my insert person died, dah, dah, dah, dah dah, and it's like that person has just gone through a major grief. Yeah, two ears, one mouth. Use them proportionally, shush. This is not the time to be letting. Let them have the space to express, and I just want to say that because I think around grief and bereavement it's especially egregious.

Speaker 2: 33:18

Yes, yes, for sure and I think that's the point is that again it's done with good intentions of I'm trying to make this person feel less alone or less like something's wrong. I want to take away their pain, right, so I go into telling them my story or problem solving for them, and now I've just taken away their ability to process, their ability to speak or have space, or you know, now it's about me. So we want to avoid empathy hijacking and so there's a time and a place where you can say you know, this must be really tough for you and you know, I'm happy to share what I went through when, whatever, when you're ready to hear it and they may come to you later. Of like, yeah, I'm ready, I'm happy to share what I went through when, whatever, when you're ready to hear it and they may come to you later. Of like, yeah, I'm ready, I'm ready for some advice.

Speaker 1: 34:04

I'd like to hear what you did or how you solved this problem. Right, right, yes, beautifully. I mean it's like I want to underline and highlight when we're in the office and we're in a workplace, we do have these false, like formed relationships that sometimes they might be legitimate friendships, sometimes they might just be friendly relationships. So you don't want to put your small intestines on the table, you don't want the world to know, but at the same time you're like grieving over or whatever, this situation. Yeah, right, you're in a place and having someone I sometimes call them conversational narcissists but this idea of like redirecting back to your experience and we have to remember we don't all have the same socioeconomic background you also might be at a different pay scale, where you're able to hire that person to help you with that thing, where I'm not in that situation right.

Speaker 1: 34:51

Just understanding the different layers and nuances.

Speaker 2: 34:55

The best phrase I heard during the pandemic was we might all be in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat, and that's what we have to remember for any trauma, any ordeal, any issue that someone's having is it might be the same storm, but they're in a different boat. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:15

And I love what you said about saying. You know I can relate to that and at some point, if you ever want to talk about how I managed it, I'm here for you. Just something like that is a way to validate what they're saying, but not bring it on yourself.

Speaker 2: 35:29

Right after I really started researching empathy, that the appropriate response when someone shares something tough or terrible or whatever is just to say, yeah, that sounds really tough, and that's even when I've had friends that have lost parents, for example. I'll even. You know, there's nothing I can say. This sucks.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:53

This is terrible, right, and they're like yeah, and we feel like we don't want to say that because we think we're going to send them into a downward spiral. They're already in the downward spiral. They want to be acknowledged, they want to know that they're not losing their mind because they feel this way, right, so sometimes that's enough is just to say I see you, and that sounds really hard right now. Yeah, yeah, what can I do? What do you need? What do you?

Speaker 1: 36:19

need. Yes, yes, yeah, all right, moving to our last section, I want if you could hit on the five pillars, and I think I want to go deeper or get a little more information on two of them. But Okay, great yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:33

So the pillars are what I call the five pillars of empathetic and effective leadership, and I was trying to deconstruct the recipe from these leaders that, seemingly with no effort, are both empathetic and high-performing. And so I did hundreds of interviews through my podcast. I did lots of research and these were the five common threads that came up over and over again. So they're meant to be a framework, not for strengthening your empathy. That was the previous book, the Empathy Edge. But if you are trying to be an empathetic leader and you feel or you know that performance is slipping, people are walking all over you, you're losing your own personal boundaries. Look to the pillars to see if one of them might need to be strengthened, because that might be a clue as to what's going on about how you're not able to have that balance. So the five pillars are self-awareness, self-care, clarity, decisiveness and joy. So real, quick, self-awareness you need to know what you're bringing to the interaction and you need to put your ego aside and say it doesn't matter if you have been a CEO for 20 years. You always have more to learn. So what are your strengths, what are your blind spots, what are your challenges, what are your emotional triggers, so that you know what you're bringing into the interaction and you can adjust accordingly and manage accordingly. Right Self-care is not manis and pedis. It's being able to recharge your battery and fill your capacity, because if you are at half capacity, you are not able to be empathetic without, you're not able to take in other points of view without defensiveness or fear, take in other points of view without defensiveness or fear. So how are you recharging, how are you resting? How are you taking care of your mind, your body, your soul? And that could be anything from paid time off and making sure you're taking it and modeling it for your team. By the way, right, it could be something very calming. It could be yoga or meditation or reading. For some people it's something very active to recharge their brain. It's like rock climbing or training for a marathon. So self-awareness helps to understand what you need for self-care right.

Speaker 2: 38:39

Clarity is really not just about being kind. It's about keeping people in a state where they're not anxious, they're not fearful. They're not anxious, they're not fearful, they're not under stress. Are you being clear about values, norms, expectations, the mission, the purpose, feedback Are you giving actionable feedback, like you're doing a great job or you could be doing better is not actionable feedback. So making sure that we are crystal clear when we're communicating, because you can't hold someone accountable to an expectation you've never set. So what I hear sometimes is you know, I'm a really empathetic leader, I listen to my team, I'm always there for them, but like they're just not accountable. Take a look at clarity.

Speaker 2: 39:23

I spoke to one leader of a very large global advertising agency, a very young, hungry workforce. The minute they got clear on career progression, career advancement, mission values, entitlement went away. This idea of constantly asking for more went away, because they knew where they stood right Decisiveness. Don't let things linger. Don't keep people in limbo forever, even in the name of. I'm trying to get everyone's opinion about everything. Yes, you want to synthesize multiple points of view. You don't want to be a dictator, but learn to synthesize quickly and transparently and make a call and then communicate that back to the team.

Speaker 2: 40:05

Here's why this decision was made. Jill, we loved your idea about X. It actually provoked a really great conversation, but here's why we're not going to be able to include that in the proposal. But please keep those ideas coming, jill, because it really sparked a great conversation. Now I've encouraged you to continue giving feedback, but I've also explained why the decision was made. So now you can disagree, but commit to the decision right, and then joy is just you know, kind of what we were talking about earlier.

Speaker 2: 40:34

It's not just about being funny as a leader. It's about and it doesn't mean the work's going to be joyful every moment, like we 'll still have to do budget spreadsheets and all that kind of jazz, but it's although for some people that is joy, I should say, you know, to each their own. But it's really about creating levity, even especially when the work gets hard. Is there camaraderie? Are you encouraging workplace friendships? You know, you spoke earlier the data around friends at work. If you have a friend at work, your engagement is higher, your performance is higher, absenteeism is lower all of these great things right. So are you encouraging some levity? And you don't have to think of it all yourself. Let your team get involved. You might have people that want to start a really fun Slack channel, or it's not a waste of time. Those moments are what enable us to engage and be there for each other. So when the work gets tough, we're in it with each other and we want to show up for each other.

Speaker 1: 41:29

Yeah, and I also think about my own experiences. The experiences clients share with me is that it is that connection around sometimes the insanity of what we're doing, even though there is a clear end goal, but in order to get there you have to do it this way, and some of the jokes that come out of that are, I mean, water out your nose because you're like laugh out loud kind of funny.

Speaker 2: 41:59

I was in a really negative culture multiple times, but one particular time but my immediate team. We built a micro culture of being very close, having a lot of levity, a lot of camaraderie, and one of the things that was like our calm in the storm of that environment was a bunch of us went to lunch every day together Like no matter what. We might've taken a little bit longer than we should have, but that was actually like a joy that kept us going. It powered us through the rest of the stuff we had to deal with so that we could perform.

Speaker 1: 42:32

Right, I love it. I love it. So my last question is what advice would you give to a worker who isn't in a position, for various reasons, that they can leave and clearly have found themselves with an unempathetic leader? Should they go to HR? Should they not? Like that's always a sticky, sticky one?

Speaker 2: 42:56

I know Well your thoughts on that. Yeah Well, I mean, it depends on what's happening, right? If it's something where you're physically or psychologically in danger, you should go to HR, but if it's just, I don't know, if it's an HR violation that you're not empathetic.

Speaker 1: 43:08

Unfortunately, that's not an HR violation yet being a jerk is not a fireball.

Speaker 2: 43:12

Unfortunately, yeah, it's not. But I would say I actually gave this advice to a friend of mine like a year ago who was dealing with someone who, just as an example, completely talked over her, wouldn't take her ideas, was constantly like, let's do it this way. Let's do it this way, just very difficult to work with. And I said did you try, like a little Jedi mind trick of like practicing empathy with that person? You don't have to tell this person you're practicing empathy, but what would happen in your status meetings if you just let her talk and you supported every one of her ideas? So, like Jill, that sounds like a really interesting idea. Tell me more about that. Tell me more, okay, interesting, and actually just not push against it anymore. Right, what would happen? Like, just see what would happen. Maybe she's coming on so strong because she feels like you're not valuing or listening to her ideas and maybe there's a little bit of insecurity about, well, I'm just going to keep pushing this because I can, because I'm in the. So that's what I would say is try to do this little Jedi trick of responding with empathy to your boss and asking questions, instead of always giving them a wall to push against and just get curious. Do it for a week. They might think something's wrong with you, I don't know. But do it for a week and see what happens.

Speaker 2: 44:43

You don't have to support what they're saying if you don't agree with it, but if they are, you know, it depends on what the issue is.

Speaker 2: 44:50

If they're always talking over you, if they're always poo-pooing your ideas, get curious and start asking them questions and actively listening to them and see how it changes the tenor of the relationship. Because if we're not empathetic, that could be ego, that could be insecurity, that could be fear driving that. And if you show up in the interaction as the empathetic one, you are actually setting the tone, even if they never acknowledge it that that's what you're doing. Try it for a week and see what happens. That would be my best advice for that, because it's not your job to change the other person. All you can do is show up how you show up, and if you are an empathetic colleague, if you are an empathetic worker, you tend to be able to build engagement and buy-in because of that behavior. So try it on that person that you're pushing up against, instead of trying to make them change for you, and see what happens I think that is a perfect spot to leave this.

Speaker 1: 45:56

So, maria, thank you so much for being here. I will put all of your information in the show notes where to get maria's book, where to follow her on the socials and where she puts out great work. And if you have questions, always email me at hello at jillgriffincoachingcom. We will get those questions to maria. We will bring her back and have her answer questions. If that'd be great, and the mall we'd love to have you back. So until next time, I'm going to tell all of you embrace empathy be intentional and kind.

Speaker 1: 46:22

I'll see you soon.