Equity Is a Career Strategy with Celeste Warren

Celeste Warren spent 28 years institutionalizing equity at a Fortune 100 company. Now she's breaking down what equity actually means for your career navigation and leadership presence. In this episode we discuss: 

• Why equity is a career navigation strategy
• The difference between being included and being influential, and how to close that gap
• What managers owe their talent beyond performance reviews and how to work the system when yours falls short

Show notes:

Visit: Celeste Warren Consulting

Read: The Truth About Equity

Connect: LinkedIn

Transcript

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Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, I'm Jill Griffin, your host of The Career Refresh, and today I have Celeste Warren. She has spent 25 years inside Global Fortune 100 companies, rising to vice president and chief diversity and inclusion officer. She's built the system. She's had the conversations with C-suite leaders that you definitely want to hear. And since retiring, she has founded a consulting firm. She's co-founded a nonprofit supporting students of color and STEM, or excuse me, in STEM. And she's also published her second book, which we're going to talk a lot about today, The Truth About Equity. I will have the information for her book and where to find her and her website in the show notes. So definitely check that out. Her book is available on Amazon and throughout major booksellers. So today we are unpacking equity as a career navigation strategy. When Celeste and I first started talking about this, I found this to be fascinating. And I was really, really excited to bring this conversation close close to you because we often think about it as a corporate initiative, and that's wonderful. And it should be, right? But this is about you, the individual, as a leader, whether you're leading others or whether you are the leader who wants to continue to navigate within the workplace. So this is your strategy. And with that, let us welcome Celeste Warren.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Jill. Thank you for the invitation. I'm really looking forward to the conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Awesome, awesome, really. Okay, so let's just get right in. You've said that equity is a career navigation strategy. And this really was what piqued my interest, not just a corporate initiative. So for a senior professional who may be listening, and folks, as you're listening or watching, you probably want to grab that notes app or grab pen and paper because I already know that Celeste is going to be hitting you with you with things that you definitely want to take note of and put into action this week. So if you are a senior professional who feels like you're hitting that ceiling, what do you think the difference is between an equity problem, an influence problem, or a performance problem? How do they know?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah. So performance is the what I like to say is um what your your functional discipline and your your leadership. So if you're in the C-suite and you're a leader and you're you have command of um an organization, it's about how you perform each day. Okay. You know, you set objectives, you set priorities, you are responsible for the uh performance of your team. So that's more of a performance standpoint. And and at the at the executive level, it

Performance Vs Equity Vs Influence

SPEAKER_00 2:32

really um is highlighted because they look at, you know, are you able to lead?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Are you are you doing are you hitting your goal or not? So it's more prescriptive. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Okay, and then from a equity standpoint, for me, equity is how you get that discretionary effort from individuals in your organization, which leads to better team performance and better organizational performance. Because from an equity standpoint, you're meeting people where they are, because everyone didn't start on your on your team, didn't start in the same place. So you have to really understand where they started from, where what they're about. So beyond the skills and capabilities, you have to talk about that. You have to understand where they are from that standpoint, but also from the standpoint of their life experiences, their culture or their identity, how that factors in to who they are as a person and how they are performing. Because sometimes you need to understand what's beyond the functional skills and capabilities to what is really gonna optimize their level of performance, that sense of belonging, that sense of you really see me as a leader, you really understand my value as a leader, and I appreciate that you see me, you understand my value, you see what my skills and capabilities are, but you have a I trust you because you have a vested interest in my career, in my abilities, and you make me feel valued just by how you show up and you treat me every day. Okay. That's where you get the discretionary effort. That's where you get the individuals that are that are ride or die with you. That's when you get the individuals that are gonna stick with you when you have to go up that hill, when you have to have those hard messages during challenging times in the business, they're with you. And I think that's the difference. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

So then let's take a step back and define for everyone what equity is in your definition.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So I like to use it from the standpoint of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Diversity is simply differences in people, those you can see and those you can't see. Inclusion, you want to you want to surround everyone with that culture of inclusion because with all of those differences, different perspectives, different identities, different life experiences, you need to get them to a collective purpose, which is usually the mission or vision of that organization. In order to do that, you surround them with this culture of inclusion so they have a sense of belonging, and you get all of those different people with all of those different perspectives and identities to that collective purpose. Now, equity is you have all of these different people, as I said, from different starting points. What do I need to do? Those acts of equity are those things that you need to do to get them to that collective purpose. And you have to meet people where they are and understand

Defining Equity With Rocks And Fence

SPEAKER_00 5:35

what it is, what are those obstacles and barriers that are getting in the way from them, getting to that collective purpose, and then help to blow those away as a leader. So that's what I like to just very pragmatically say what equity it is. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Okay. So really, really helpful. Maybe if you could give an example, um, what would be an ex an equity example for um someone who's from a historically marginalized community? And then maybe an example from somebody who is um disabled, right? If you can give uh different examples of what equity might look like.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

I I'll use an example that I use in everyone has heard, which kind of puts it in perspective. Everyone's um heard of the seen the um rocks and the fences illustration before, right? Yeah, it explains it. And so I use it in a in a little bit of a way that goes a little bit deeper. So, you know, that first illustration for those of you that are listening that haven't seen it, there's an illustration of Deloitte actually started. And the first illustration is, you know, everyone's standing on one rock and there's a fence in front. The person on the right still can't see over the fence, person in the middle barely see over the fence, the person on the left can see over the fence. In the second illustration, they've given the person on the right two additional rocks, three rocks, so they can see over the fence. The person in the middle has one additional, and so they can see over the fence. The person in the left still has the one rock because they were always able to see over the fence. Now, what's happening now is the person that was standing on one rock in both those illustrations, they're turning to their right and they're saying, Well, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocks, I only have one? That seems unfair. And so the acts of equity are the rocks that were put in place. And a lot of uh the diversity and inclusion uh practitioners and leaders, and also just leaders in general, they've done the work in putting the rocks in place, the acts of equity. So everyone can have access to opportunities, career aspirations, performance, etc. So they put those things in place, whether that be um person with a disability, they uh maybe they have they need an accommodation. And so what am I doing to provide uh them access to an accommodation so they can perform and be productive, as an example. The woman who is feeling marginalized because her work is not being recognized in the workplace. What are we doing to make sure that she has a sense of belonging and feels valued as a leader? What am I doing to make sure that she feels accomplished and valued for the work that she's doing?

unknown 8:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Whether that be through performance reviews, through ongoing feedback, et cetera, the assignments that I give her. So those are the acts of equity. But at the same time, that fence is there. And the fence represents all of those isms, the things that have that are longer term, that have been there for decades, in years, decades, hundreds of years, and they're going to take a longer time to try to pull apart. So racism, sexism, homophobia, all of those different things. And so the person that was standing on one rock in both illustrations, they're looking and they're saying, I don't understand why you had why they're standing on those rocks, because they don't understand that the fence is there and how it manifests itself and behaviors to his colleagues on the right. So we have to do the work of putting the acts of equity in place, the rocks. We have to do the harder work of tearing down the fence and the strategic and longer-term work. We also have to have a conversation with that individual who was standing on one rock to say, help them to understand the fence is there for whatever reason, your life experiences, whatever it has been, you've been able to see over the fence. You don't understand how it manifests itself to your colleagues to your right. And then also not just making helping them to understand it, but getting them to get in the boat, grab an oar, start rowing, and be active allies to help us because we can't do this work alone. It has to be done in um congregation with other people. Something as like succession planning, right? In a hiring situation. If you're using panel interviews as opposed to one-on-one interviews, so the candidate comes in, they interview with Jill, they leave her office, they go interview with Bob, they leave his office, etc. Using panel interviews where everyone has the structured interview guides, you're asking the same questions of each candidate, where you're able to sit in the same time, the interviewers, hear the con hear the answers of the candidates, and then in have discussions about the candidates because you've been able, you can challenge each other. And you can say, Well, we when I interviewed Jill, um, I didn't really like that answer that they gave about you know how they started. And then the other leader can challenge you on it and say, Well, what didn't you like about it? Because here's what I heard.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

So I hear you saying that the panel interview would benefit this situation.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, some companies or I can remember years ago, they didn't post jobs, and it would be who you it truly would be a who you

Removing Bias From Hiring Decisions

SPEAKER_00 11:01

process.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

I guess the the challenge that I would have in that is that if I'm, you know, if I just think about any of my previous when I worked within a large company, you know, I might be on a daily team of five or ten people, part of a large a larger org that might be 50 people. I just might naturally know because I work with that colleague so often that, you know, they've hinted that they're thinking of leaving, and and I just might know, but we haven't announced it yet because there's no plan in place. Okay. That's that's not necessarily intentionally excluding anyone. It's just the natural course of conversation. So how would you suggest someone who's in if they're in that scenario, they would handle something like that?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Well, so just from from my experience, yeah, you go, let's just play this out. So you go to the manager, the leader, and you say, Well, I heard through the grapevine that there might be an opening on your team. Now, the blowback, and I've seen this so many times, right? The blowback is that manager starts getting paranoid and thinking, okay, they may not even have a clue. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

So that's that's kind of what I'm getting at. I mean, there are times in which someone would resign and it would be in total lockdown because we wouldn't want employee morale to be impacted. Or if we didn't have a proper succession plan for the client or the business, we didn't want the market or the client to get worried. So it would be like, don't talk about it until we have an idea in place. So again, those are natural things that would happen in business. It's not meant to exclude anyone, but the structural bias inherent in that ends up excluding. And that's kind of where I'm saying. So, like no one's doing it intentionally, but how do you get around that?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Well, you get around it if it's a if it's an executive type level, then that's what the conception, right? Being a susceptible. If that's a director or manager uh through the organization, yeah. Then I mean I I would first ask that person who has sort of hinted that they're gonna leave. Well, do you think that I could be someone who's viable to for your role and have that conversation and say, well, how comfortable are you with me going to the boss and saying, Hey, you know, I would really like to be considered for this role because I know the getting ready to leave. Because it's just gonna cause havoc if you go to the boss and that person hasn't talked to them yet. You've you've also betrayed a confidence. Oh my God, yeah. I've seen that 50,000 times. Yeah, yeah. So that's where I would go when I would say to the to the manager, if everything is copacetic and you've had the conversation and all everything's transparent, what are the what what are you looking for? What skills, what capabilities, how many years of experience, all of the characteristics, do I have what is needed for this role, do you think? And then having that that conversation. There's nothing wrong with having that conversation. If the manager says, well, actually, I don't know if you would be the right person for the role, that's when you turn it into employee development conversation to say, you know, okay, well, let's have a conversation about what you feel is missing from my from my experience. And then how do I get it?

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So you've talked a bit about um, you know, being included versus being influential. How if I'm in those buckets, how will I know? Am I just being included or am I actually having the impact that I want to have as uh an employee and a leader?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Yeah, well, in email language, are you in the two line or the CC line?

unknown 14:48

Right?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Um, so if you are true, if you're just being included, you're there, you're there in the discussion and no one's really asking your opinion. You can you can tell when when when someone really when you're an influencer. The difference is an influencer, when you're in a meeting and and someone is looking to you, asking your opinion on things, and the room is quiet when you talk. And and there, you know, people are writing notes and this and that, blah, blah, blah. They're listening to what you say, they're writing, it's it's incorporated in the output of whatever it is that you're you're discussing.

Included Or Influential In Meetings

SPEAKER_00 15:29

It's repeated by the person who's asking you the question. So what you're saying is X, Y, Z, da-da-da-da-da. And and there's a dialogue that's happening that is uh an integral part of the work product of the and the outcomes that you're that you're having the meeting for. The person who's just there is just there for whatever reason. And I've been in those meetings where sometimes you're just sitting there, like, okay, well, why is this person here? I can remember having conversations with with some of my managers and directors and saying, okay, these are the people you've invited. Well, why is this person coming? Oh, well, they have an interest. We have to get stuff done and make decisions. Right. So we need the people there that have skin in the game. And the decision that we make is going to have an impact on their department, their product, their strategy, et cetera. So that's the difference, I think, between someone who's just included versus someone who is an inner.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And on two points on that, I can see if someone is new to their leadership role, they're hearing diversity, equity, inclusion. They're saying, I included them because you're telling me I should be including people. So they're doing that, but they need to think through, is what you're saying. I think I hear you saying is they need to think through, include them, yes, but what is the goal that you want to get? You want their opinion on this particular project, you want their point of view, you want their lived experience. Like finish that thought. You're not just including them. I think I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

No, that's exactly it.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Why are they in the room? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

What value are they bringing when they come into the room?

SPEAKER_01 17:07

So again, we've talked a few times about how equity is a strategy. If I'm the employee, how can I use that as a strategy for my career?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

So, in the employee standpoint as a strategy, understand first you have to be grounded in who you are. You know, that is I I keep that is so critical for you to be grounded in understanding your strengths, your weaknesses, your areas for development, all of that stuff. Understand it. The the equity comes in where you're sitting with that, your manager and that person who can help you and you know, help you in your aspirations. And it's it's it's making sure that they understand where you are and the acts of equity that you need to help you to thrive, not just survive, but thrive in the environment. And so um, you have to own it. You have to own, you know, okay, I I have, for example, I have this challenge where I have a special needs child at home. I am responsible for this

Using Equity To Advocate For Yourself

SPEAKER_00 18:16

project or this initiative. These are my strengths, these are my areas of development. From a life experience standpoint, I need to be home by 4:30. I have to make sure that my I'm with my child. I have to make sure that I have certain structures that are very important in their life, and I need to make sure that I'm putting those structures, that structure in place. So I need to leave. But oh, by the way, that isn't a limitation on what I can do and the value that I can bring to this organization because here's what I do. I do X, you know, maybe I do this when I get home, and then as soon as they're in bed, I'm getting online and I'm doing X, Y, and Z. So my workday isn't as conventional as my peers, but I'm still judge me on my output of my work and the quality of my work, and not when I'm doing the work during the course of the day.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

And I think that I mean, that's valid. I think we have a long way to go there. Um, it's funny, I was talking to a client who recently went from basically has spent her career in more independent shops and more small business, and it's just made the jump and is now working at one of the magnificent seven, right? So one of the big tech companies that we all know, right? And I have permission to share this. Um, and in her uh travels, she's really trying to regulate her nervous system, where she's like, no one cares where I am right now. Like I'm not, and I keep having to tell her, and and like she's senior, she's not used to not having to report in. She's used to being managed for productivity and busyness and not being managed for the value that she creates. So now she's in an organization where they don't really care where she's sitting, if she's at her assigned desk or if she's gonna work from home this morning to avoid traffic or or what have you. They're talking to her about the value she's creating. And it's such an amazing step change to see that because I think we've all been in organizations where someone is almost like making you punch time codes. And that works depending on how you're classified from an HR standpoint, right? It's very important that we are honoring classification of employees if you are being paid hourly or you're deserving overtime. That's not what we're talking about, folks. We're talking about someone who is a salaried employee, but still being treated by um, and this happens more often than not. That like, well, what do you, what do you mean you're taking you need a day off? And it's like, no, you've already worked this month so many extra hours that it should almost be a comp day, right? Versus an actual day off. So navigating that I think is really interesting. And I agree with you, but I think as leaders, we have a long way to go to be shifting our mindset and then also being clear to the people that we're overseeing as leaders to what does value-based um management, management by objectives or MBOs, what does that actually look like? And listen, if you can do it in 25 hours or it takes you 45 hours, the end of the day, I probably don't care as long as I get what I need. And I think we have a we have a lot of work there to do within organizations to stop strangling us to you know, butts and seats and busyness versus what's the value.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Micromanaging. What's that? Yeah, don't tell me how to go from A to B to B to C to C to D. Tell me where where Z is and when you want Z, and I'll get there. And if I have any problems, then I'll come to you. Um, you know, we don't have the conversations at the beginning of the manager employee relationship. So when I first when you first Get at the job, and here's my manager. Sitting down in they used to call them manager employee contracts. And it's like, let's just have a conversation. Here's my working style, here's what I do, here's when I do it, here's how I am. And and um, and what's your management style, what's your communication style, and having that that adult conversation when you first begin the when you first get in the job, so they understand who you are and the essence of who you are, and and and it's a lot easier to have to build that relationship down the down the line. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I would actually even say have that. I mean, if you're already within the organization, you're getting rotated, that's one thing, or you're getting promoted to a different department, that's one thing. But if you're in the job interview process, I would actually bring that into the job interview, maybe not on the first round interview, but as you're progressing in your conversations, either in time or in frequency, I would actually have a conversation. I mean, I've asked many a times when

Working Style Talks With Managers

SPEAKER_01 22:57

I've interviewed for jobs to the person I would re reporting to. What annoys you? Yeah. Like to really understand like what are your pet peeves and how do you like to work? And like it's it's about competency, but it's also about chemistry, like yeah, to understand that. Okay, last character too. Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, last question. You have a line within your book um about performance gets you paid, and sponsorship gets you promotion, promoted. Give people a little understanding, especially if they've never had a sponsor before. Um, every organization kind of defines it a little bit differently, but there are some key tenets of it. So give us an idea of what does that mean and how do you build it?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Yeah. So sponsorship is uh you don't pick a sponsor, a sponsor picks you. So um you can pick a mentor. You you and the reason why I say that is a sponsor is that person who's behind the scenes in those rooms when they're having talent discussions, when they're having um uh succession plan discussions, when they're having talent reviews, they're talking about you in a way that is very favorable, that really puts you in a light where, you know, if I'm gonna be on an island, I want Jill on that island with me, right? And they're talking about why and all of that. You unbeknownst to

Sponsorship That Leads To Promotion

SPEAKER_00 24:21

you. Yes. But they and and the way that you you you make yourself that person who you who they want on the island is by your performance, your leadership, your ability, I used to say, to shape fog, um, seeing what needs to get done, getting it done, and getting it done in the right way, without someone having to have to hold your hand. That's what leaders and managers look for. They they look for the job that you're in and you're doing it well, but uh they also look at are you ready for the next job? Are you ready for the next challenge? Are you ready for the next opportunity experience? And so as they're looking at you, they're gonna either decide whether they're gonna sponsor you or not. And when they do decide that they're gonna sponsor you, they're doing it unbeknownst to you in a lot of times. Yeah. Um, in those discussions where it's very critical when they're talking about the next level of leadership or the next next generation of talent.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

So the the one other thing that I would add to that, I agree with everything you've said on sponsorship, is that there are many organizations, and this is important for you to find out, especially at the Fortune 500 and the Fortune 100 level, where if I'm the executive, yes, I'm to sponsor, but I am being held. Part of my performance review is how many individuals did I sponsor and how many people did I fight for, right? So that it's not just, you know, we're not all opera singers, me, me, me, I, I, I, right? I'm actually advocating for people who are in the room. And part of my advancement as a leader and the how I'm being graded against my performance is am I lifting people up and bringing them forward? So really important in your organization to find out if that's the case because um it just means that people are more incentivized to do it. And then it gives you an opportunity to think about, and that was a second part of my question: how do you build that relationship so that someone does say, you know what, I want to sponsor Celeste. She's pretty phenomenal, and I I want to sponsor her.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

You you build it by this is not something you can do in smoke and mirrors. It just isn't. You have to have a solid historical uh history of good performance, great performance. You have to be that person who raises her hand when there's an uh a project or an assignment or initiative that comes up that's not really easy, that's a little bit challenging and difficult, but you raise your hand and say, you know what, I I'd like to, I'd like to take that on. Um you are so making yourself building your your from a performance standpoint, you're doing your job and you're doing it well, but you're also willing to take on um additional sort of projects or initiatives or responsibilities that are going to get you visibility, yes, but also they're looking at you and saying they're ready for the next move. They they really, you know, they're not just doing the role of a manager or director, they're doing a role of an executive director of a senior director. Um and and you know, okay, that's good. Um volunteering for, I'll do the, you know, not not in a performative way, but um volunteering to lead a group project, or um, because if you're leading the group project, a lot of times you're the one who's presenting in the the senior level meetings as well. So getting exposure because at the you know, there's preparation and then there's opportunity at those crossroads. That's where you you start to see the success, and you start to see I'm getting the exposure, um, and especially for marginalized groups of people, because they're sitting around and and they're they're doing all of these joke jobs and responsibilities and these projects and they're all these lateral moves, and then all of a sudden, and they're building up these strong um stable of skills and capabilities, and then all of a sudden somebody sees them either they do a presentation at a meeting or something like that, and it's like, wow, where did they come from? This this person's really, really good. I didn't a lot of thought into what they've been presenting. We asked follow-up questions, they seemed to know what they were talking about, they had a grounded sort of command of the information, they understood it from soup to nuts, and not in the minute details, but they could explain it to me like I was a sixth grader, and it made sense. So all of those things make you have to make sure that you you're you're doing a lot of those different things, not just sort of hiding in your job, and and and you gotta you gotta take that leap and you gotta take that that that risk. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

All right, really last question. Um, for anyone listening right now that feels like the system isn't built for me and they're struggling with this. What's one thing that you want them to walk away with knowing?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

I I want them to walk away knowing that you add value, you have skills, you have capabilities, you have experiences, you have you have um the essence of you is valuable. If you don't feel like it is valued in this organization that you're in, there are how many other organizations out there that you can you can um you can go to, or think about, hey, a lot of things, and this is really happening with black women now, where you know, due to the economic situation, due to all the layoffs, all this, you see a lot of

Go Where You Are Celebrated

SPEAKER_00 30:13

disproportionately black women that have lost their jobs over the last two or three years. A lot of those women are saying, you know what, I don't want to go back into the corporate environment. I'm gonna start my own thing, or I'm gonna join other colleagues that we'll start something together, or I'm gonna go to a smaller organization. There are choices that you can have, that you have where you can feel valued and bring that value. And if if someone doesn't accept you in XYZ organization, go to ABC organization or start your own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

I think that's a great place. It also reminds me of what my grandmother used to always say, go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated. So if it works beautiful. If it works for your, we realize that it is a privilege to be able to find another job or quit a job. So if that works for you and your organism and your family and your dynamics, yes, but understand whether it's now or eventually, if it's not working for you, go to find the places that you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated. Celeste, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation and really getting into some of the nuances of all this. If you have questions, everyone, please email us at hello at JillGriffincoaching.com. We will get them to Celeste. We will bring her back. I'm sure she will come back. I haven't asked her, but I'm gonna guess that she'll come back if we ask her to. And I really appreciate you being here. So everyone, have a really great week. Be intentional, really think through what equity means within your department, your organization for yourself. And as always, always, always, always be kind. I'll see you soon.